[paraclete]

I justify NOTHING Clete, but should I paste the quotes from you justifying your own acceptance of institutional racism?

I don't accept institutionalised racism Tal in fact I don't accept racism of any kind but I do note that certain groups are more disposed to certain behaviours than others. To me institutionalised racism would be like what happened here in the days of the stolen generation or aparteid in South Africa or the american south. Hopefully we are past those times, we are a little more enlightened, but the reality is that in this world not all men are equal, they are not of equal ability and they don't have equal opportunity and sometimes positive descrimination is necessary to break the generational bondage. I think that is equally true in your nation and mine. Question is; are you willing to bite the bullet or are you going to hide behind this all men are equal so I don't need to do anything?

But I ask you how has discrimination worked out for your nation? Has affirmative action freed your black population from poverty? You want to talk institutionalised racism, take a look closer to home.

[tomder55]

has affirmative action freed your black population from poverty? You want to talk institutionalised racism, take a look closer to home.

it's all in good intentions so the lib conscious is clear.

[excon]

I don't accept institutionalised racism Tal in fact I don't accept racism of any kind but I do note that certain groups are more disposed to certain behaviours than others.

Hello again, clete:

That's like saying I DON'T steal.. I only shoplift.. What makes it especially insidious, is that you have NO idea that what you said is RACIST... THAT'S the problem...

Look... Let me try again... Let's use another word.. Let's use prejudice... Prejudice MEANS to pre-judge. Let's insert that word in your statement and see what we come up with...

"I don't accept prejudice of any kind, but I do note (prejudge) that certain groups, are more disposed to certain behaviors..."

YOU are the poster boy for racism. That's why I latched on to your statement so gladly.. You ADMIT it, and you don't even know it. Now, I didn't do this to put you down. Only to use you to MAKE my point...

Racism is a main DOT.

excon

[paraclete]

Hello again, clete:

That's like saying I DON'T steal.. I only shoplift.. What makes it especially insidious, is that you have NO idea that what you said is RACIST... THAT'S the problem...

Look... Lemme try again... Let's use another word.. Let's use prejudice... Prejudice MEANS to pre-judge. Let's insert that word in your statement and see what we come up with...

"I don't accept prejudice of any kind, but I do note (prejudge) that certain groups, are more disposed to certain behaviors..."

YOU are the poster boy for racism. That's why I latched on to your statement so gladly.. You ADMIT it, and you don't even know it. Now, I didn't do this to put you down. Only to use you to MAKE my point...

Racism is a main DOT.

excon

Hello ex you really should learn to read, not see what you want to see. I said groups, not races. Those groups might be religious groups, they might be nationalities or ethnic groups and sadly there might be racial overtones in their behaviour, saying that I observe something is not an indication of prejudice but that I have eyes and use them, This means I don't pre-judge but observe. I don't like the behaviour of people from many places, including your own nation and it has many groups and there is enough bad behaviour to lump you all together and suggest there is something of a national ethos behind it. This bad behaviour is a learned response. Now make something racist out of that but while you are at it explain this racist act to me
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-1...8?WT.svl=news0

[paraclete]

it's all in good intentions so the lib conscious is clear.

Yes Tom often it works out that way because attitudes, yes, there is that word again, are entrenched

[TUT317]

Tut ,your definition of separate but equal does not work for me.Historically in this country it meant that a White could do something legally that a Black couldn't do....eat in certain establishments ,use certain public facilities ,ride in the front of the bus etc.

In this case ;the sentencing for crack was the same for all races and the different sentencing for coke applied to all races .

Hi Tom,


Your historical definition of 'separate but equal' is accurate. Your comment about crack and coke applying equally to all races is also accurate. However, the problem is that while all of this is true it is worth keeping I'm mind that many poor Africian Americians have tended to consider a particular form of the drug cocaine a preferred choice.

This doesn't mean that other poor ethnic groups don't consider this a preferred choice. No doubt they do. It has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. Rather it is socio-economic choice. It just so happens that Africian Americians are the largest group occuping this platform. Hence they are the most representative when it comes to incarceration for this type of crime.

As I said, I haven't read Alexander's book, but I would be surprised if she hasn't raise this issue. I would also be surprised if she didn't argue along the lines of 'separate but equal'.

If she is talking along those lines I would imagine she is not presenting an argument for a deliberate policy of separate but equal. This would obviously be an absurd position to take. Rather, it would be along the lines of an UNINTENDED consequence of the cocaine laws. In other words, unintended consequences of drug legislation has given rise to a facsimile of the Jim Crow Laws. However, it is important to note that THIS ONLY APPLIES to the area of jurisprudence.

No doubt Alexander would want to talk extensively about other areas in her book. As I said, I can't comment on this because I have not read the book. My observations are based on what I have read here.

Tut

[paraclete]

Separate but equal is the real racist act, the aparteid response, but americans don't like to think that they once practiced aparteid in a manner just as repressive as the South Africans. They see racism as something like the nazi practiced where separate and not-equal was the rule and cannot believe that their system was extreme, with attitudes that masked a very nasty physical outcome where some were never equal.

So the consequence of the drug war might fall on the disadvantaged but remember it is only because of the level of offense in that community because they are neither separate or equal

[talaniman]

And targeted, as they have nowhere to hide, while the powder crowd just goes back to suburban gated communities, or the quiet subdivisions where the cops don't go.

What makes the racism so bad, and pervasive is the implementation of policy through the law that not only looks legitimate, but has the guise of social justice, law and order to promote it. Like the "job creator" excuse to keep taxes low for the richest, and extract resources from those that need it. Like allocating more prison space, while defunding alternative measures to get people not only on a positive track in society, but keep them in the incarceration cycle.

And lets face it Clete, your observations are very prejudiced, and not as casual, or accurate as you may think them to be as case in point your assignment of negative behavior, or attitude to those you do not understand, or dislike. You would fit quite well with the knee jerk obstruction crowd who get there ego rush by deriding others, and lifting yourself while failing to acknowledge but for the grace of birth go I.

So of course you see no reason to open your own mind and see that in truth, you are as subjugated as the ones you disparage, yet don't know it. You seem to take Toms position of its not your fault that the system works for you and not them.

So I submit to you both that maybe that's why you hate the players, and NOT the game, because it puts you above the ones who lose in it. And the bleeding heart liberals who want the game to end, and the right things done.

[excon]

Hello tal:

**BIG, HUGE GREENIE**

excon

[tomder55]

Speaker Tip O'Neill came back from Boston full of stories about how the Len Bias story was all the talk of Beantown. His 1st act was to call the Democrat caucus together and tell them that his top priority was to advance legislation that would get tough on designer drugs like crack.
That legislation became the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986
Sorry ,this whole issue was caused by the Dems trying to outflank the Repubs on the law and order issue. It was and is not racism .It is unintended consequences of legislation that was passed with the best information available at the time.
Makes a compelling case for all legislation having an expiration date.

[talaniman]

Thanks ex! I volunteer for many causes, foundations, churches, and schools, and yeah, I am a bleeding hearted liberal, progressive, and proud of it. Its easy to bash a guy when he's down, but doing the right thing takes work.

My observation is when you show a guy the right thing, he follows it. While ignorance of the law is no excuse for bad behavior, the law has to be fair in the first place. That's the whole dilemma. It is intentionally NOT fair. Nor are the ones who defend that unfairness.

That's my observation, just saying.

[talaniman]

Speaker Tip O'Neill came back from Boston full of stories about how the Len Bias story was all the talk of Beantown. His 1st act was to call the Democrat caucus together and tell them that his top priority was to advance legislation that would get tough on designer drugs like crack.
That legislation became the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986
Sorry ,this whole issue was caused by the Dems trying to outflank the Repubs on the law and order issue. It was and is not racism .It is unintended consequences of legislation that was passed with the best information available at the time.
Makes a compelling case for all legislation having an expiration date.

Maybe some adjustments, and tweaking when needed. Like the Constitution, interpretation is in the eye of the beholder. Things change with time, and you have to account for those changes.

[paraclete]

You seem to take Toms position of its not your fault that the system works for you and not them.
.

Tal if the system works for me it is because I engage in it, I was born into just as lowly a position as any, like many I dropped out of high school, and any thing I have gained is because I worked to attain it. I didn't take the view that system couldn't work for me and therefore I should seek solance in drugs and lazying about, and drifting into activities that bring the law down on me.

I see in your statement the very attitude that I have been talking about, the idea that it is the fault of the system that it doesn't work for all, the idea that somehow the world owes you something and that even because you are a minority or disadvantaged you should have special treatment.

[talaniman]

The system owes no one anything but the opportunity, and racist laws and the application of policy takes away the opportunity, and replaces it with obstacles. Why else would the law maker defund help for a guy with a joint, and take away permanently his rights, and incarcerates him for years?

Your argument that only the strong survives may boost your ego, but does nothing for those that don't, or cannot, for whatever reason. You may be a poster child why some can accomplish, but you imperiously close your eyes to those who cannot or have not!

That's the difference between us Clete, I never forget where I come from, and you seek to erase your humble beginnings, and are no longer humble, but closed minded, and judgmental. You fail to acknowledge your roots, or understand how lucky you are to have succeeded. That's why you look down your nose at others beneath you, and would fit in great with the racist, and the prejudiced here who justify there hate, and fears, and actions, by simply saying some that are not as lucky, don't deserve help, or OPPORTUNITY.

I love you, but you are a hard core right wing conservative!

[paraclete]

The system owes no one anything but the opportunity, and racist laws and the application of policy takes away the opportunity, and replaces it with obstacles. Why else would the law maker defund help for a guy with a joint, and take away permanently his rights, and incarcerates him for years?

Your argument that only the strong survives may boost your ego, but does nothing for those that don't, or cannot, for whatever reason. You may be a poster child why some can accomplish, but you imperiously close your eyes to those who cannot or have not!

Thats the difference between us Clete, I never forget where I come from, and you seek to erase your humble beginnings, and are no longer humble, but closed minded, and judgmental. You fail to acknowledge your roots, or understand how lucky you are to have succeeded. Thats why you look down your nose at others beneath you, and would fit in great with the racist, and the prejudiced here who justify there hate, and fears, and actions, by simply saying some that are not as lucky, don't deserve help, or OPPORTUNITY.

I love you, but you are a hard core right wing conservative!

Tal I have never erased where I come from or turned a blind eye to need but with everything goes the need to, as we say, have a go, you haven't failed until you have tried. Obviously people need opportunity and the role of government is to see that opportunities exist and right wing people who think that the system will provide everything are wrong. By opportunities I don't mean the opportunity to exploit welfare or engage in illegal activity as some here might suggest is OK because after all these people are disadvantaged, but to encourgave and fund, if necessary, development and to change those parts of the system that are not working.

As to why your lawmakers would make the situation worse by removing support in certain situations I don't know, we have the same mentality at work here. I expect it is because the wrong people are employed in decision making or they are just making the budget balance

[talaniman]

You mean our systems since you see the same thing there. But I agree the structures of government are flawed, and influenced by greed, money, and need, and FEAR, but no one here has said its okay to exploit the safety net systems, its just some recognize the reasons they do.

I blame the system, not the players, unlike those who don't care to see facts beyond their nose. Clearly the game is rigged to keep power, and money in certain hands, and out of others. They keep that power, AND money by stoking fears of divisiveness.

They know the divide, and conquest of the masses is their gain.

[speechlesstx]

Jesus people, you cannot prove the law is racist by statistics. But I understand, you libs think the tail wags the dog.

[excon]

Jesus people, you cannot prove the law is racist by statistics

Hello again, Steve:

That's the way it WILL be proven when enlightened individuals take over.

As a layman, however, having a larger percentage of dark skinned people in prison, than are represented in the general population, is the most GLARING statistic of them all.

And, you go, "so what?".

Ain't nothing you can do with people like that.

excon

[speechlesstx]

No sir, I never said "so what" and you know I'm OK with legalizing pot and easing up on this non-violent prison population explosion. The difference is I don't inject racism into every perceived injustice because I'm not a racist like so many liberals.

I believe there are bigger issues in the black community to address but we can't because you guys think we're the problem when it's the left that is keeping them on the plantation.

And you go "so what"?

[talaniman]

Its neither left or right, but policy. Ending government created ghettos, is a start, I mean what would you expect from lumping poor people into one area gets you? Gangs, drugs, crime.

Then put them all in one school, and don't fund it properly? Asking for trouble! Poor blacks have the same problem Speech, as poor blacks, and as long as you see it as a black problem, you miss the point.

My point is how is making more poor people even poorer helping anything? How is making more poor people period, helping any one?