[Wondergirl]

There two were NEVER even part of the church. what do you all think?

I believe A&S were members in name only, but that story doesn't support "once saved, always saved."

[classyT]

Sure it does. They were NEVER saved. They were never real believers.

I think I'm finding some peace with this story. It makes sense to me now.

[Wondergirl]

Sure it does. They were NEVER saved. They were never real believers.

I think I'm finding some peace with this story. It makes sense to me now.

And if Dave is right that God allowed their gluttony, need for applause, and ill will to bring about their deaths, then there goes the "once saved, always saved." I can lean that way too, with Dave, and agree that they had accepted Jesus and had become a vital part of the church, but their own desires outranked being a church member.

[jakester]

Honestly, when I first posted this question i really thought they were saved. That is why this story always bothered me...it didn't fit. It does fit if they are unbelievers looking to profit.

I lied... I said before that I was off-thread but when I read your post, I couldn't help myself.

I agree with what you said above. If your starting assumption was that A&S were believers, I wholeheartedly agree that for them to die for their sin would go against much of the body of evidence that is in support of God being merciful and longsuffering towards his people... because we do sin.

In my earlier post, I did broach this possibility. I didn't argue strongly in favor of A&S being unbelievers but it is a valid possibility. It should be considered in light of the mercy of God. But to not force my position as a foregone conclusion, I assumed that the text wasn't clear as to whether they were believers or not.

I would add that I don't think they were looking to profit. Remember, they didn't even have to sell their land to make money off it. Or they could have sold their land and not told a soul about it because it was theirs to sell and were under no obligation to sell it. But their offense was they wanted to bask in the glory of appearing sacrificial without feeling the pain of the loss of their wealth. That was their offense... just wanted to be clear about that.

[classyT]

And if Dave is right that God allowed their gluttony, need for applause, and ill will to bring about their deaths, then there goes the "once saved, always saved." I can lean that way too, with Dave, and agree that they had accepted Jesus and had become a vital part of the church, but their own desires outranked being a church member.

WG,

Well you know where I stand, either Jesus paid for our sins or he didn't. Either his work was complete and it satisfied the Father or it didn't. Either he became sin for us and we received his full gift of righteousness or we didn't and we still need to work for it our unmerited favor. Which is so sillly. We didn't deserve it anyway.. how can we work for it or lose it.. if it is all unmerited.

If A&S were indeed saved, we will see them one day and asked them what the heck were they thinking because they will be in heaven. But the Bible doesn't say they were believers. We assume. But like what Pastor Prince said. In every case Luke would refer to a believer as a certain disciple. And in every case of a non believer he would say a certain man. Well that is how Luke described Ananias... a "certain man". Remember ever word used or NOT used is meaningful.

Jake,

Glad you came back. :) I need to go back and read the passages again. But if I recall correctly, the disciples at this point do not know anything at all about grace or the fact that Gentiles were going to be part of the body. They were waiting for our Lord Jesus to return to set up his earthly Kingdom which they thought would happen pretty quick. They didn't know ANYTHING at all about the church period. So I DO think some of the motive for A&S could have been for profit. Maybe they wanted in. I think the disciples were doing pretty good financially at this point. It was also that A&S wanted to look like they had done something generous and wanted kudos for their gift. But just like Judas, they were not real. They wanted money and position without one shred of faith.

Anyway, that is my thoughts. I am still a big time believer that once someone is saved.. they are ALWAYS saved... forever. When My Jesus does something.. he does it right. Man blows everything...

[Wondergirl]

WG,

Well you know where I stand, either Jesus paid for our sins or he didn't. Either his work was complete and it satisfied the Father or it didn't.

This has nothing to do with Jesus paying for sins. Of course, He did, and no matter how one interprets the A&S story, that fact still stands. The story, no matter how it's understood, doesn't refute Jesus' work that was complete and totally satisfied the Father.

The A&S story is about A&S, not about if Jesus paid for their (and our) sins.

[dwashbur]

And if Dave is right that God allowed their gluttony, need for applause, and ill will to bring about their deaths, then there goes the "once saved, always saved." I can lean that way too, with Dave, and agree that they had accepted Jesus and had become a vital part of the church, but their own desires outranked being a church member.

I'm not sure how you get a refutation of eternal security out of that. I don't think God allowing their physical deaths has anything to do with their eternal destiny. I think in many cases God uses such events to serve as examples/warnings for other believers. And since every breath belongs to him, he has the right to do whatever he wants and discontinue said breaths at his discretion. If, as I suspect, that's a separate issue from their salvation, there is no contradiction between God doing that and the principle of being saved and kept by grace.

[Wondergirl]

I'm not sure how you get a refutation of eternal security out of that.

I don't.

I don't think God allowing their physical deaths has anything to do with their eternal destiny.

I don't either.

I think in many cases God uses such events to serve as examples/warnings for other believers. And since every breath belongs to him, he has the right to do whatever he wants and discontinue said breaths at his discretion. If, as I suspect, that's a separate issue from their salvation, there is no contradiction between God doing that and the principle of being saved and kept by grace.

I agree all around.

[classyT]

WG,

I agree. But you were the one that said it it didn't support" once saved always saved". I don't think they WERE ever saved. That is why I said what I did.

If I am wrong and they were actual believers, then they are with the Lord today.

[Wondergirl]

WG,

I agree. But you were the one that said it it didn't support" once saved always saved".

I don't think it has anything to do with "once saved, always saved." That is beyond the scope of the A&S story, doesn't prove one way or the other that there is such an animal.

[dwashbur]

I don't think it has anything to do with "once saved, always saved." That is beyond the scope of the A&S story, doesn't prove one way or the other that there is such an animal.

Agreed, but it sounded as though you were saying that the deaths of A&S means "once saved, always saved" can't be correct. I think I missed something?

[classyT]

I get what you're saying, and I'm inclined to agree. At the same time, we have passages like this one.

For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:3-5)

(The NIV reads "sinful nature" instead of "flesh" which is one of my biggest gripes, and why I went with the KJV here, just so' you know.)

And this:

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (1 Cor 11:29-30)

So even Paul seems to allow for the Lord to practice a little corporal punishment when He deems it necessary. I really don't know a definitive answer to your question, that's just my take on it, and I sure won't go to the stake for it!

Dave,

I don't know. We discussed this in another thread. I don't have all the answers but this much I do know.. not a one of us is worthy to partake in and of ourselves and I don't care how much I think of to confess before I take it, I never get it all. I screw up and pretty much on a daily basis. I don't think these guys in cornith knew what they were doing. I don't think they were even doing it with the intent to sin. They just didn't take it to heart they didn't discern. It wasn't so much that the Lord was punishing them as it was they didn't believe in the finished work of Christ and they didn't understand that there was healing in his finished work. They were perishing for lack of knowledge.

[classyT]

I lied...I said before that I was off-thread but when I read your post, I couldn't help myself.

I agree with what you said above. If your starting assumption was that A&S were believers, I wholeheartedly agree that for them to die for their sin would go against much of the body of evidence that is in support of God being merciful and longsuffering towards his people...because we do sin.

In my earlier post, I did broach this possibility. I didn't argue strongly in favor of A&S being unbelievers but it is a valid possibility. It should be considered in light of the mercy of God. But to not force my position as a foregone conclusion, I assumed that the text wasn't clear as to whether they were believers or not.

I would add that I don't think they were looking to profit. Remember, they didn't even have to sell their land to make money off of it. Or they could have sold their land and not told a soul about it because it was theirs to sell and were under no obligation to sell it. But their offense was they wanted to bask in the glory of appearing sacrificial without feeling the pain of the loss of their wealth. That was their offense...just wanted to be clear about that.

Jake

I'm just hard on you I decided. You are so smart and thoughtful in your answers and I like it better when you agree with me. I don't think we disagree on this topic. It is just that I want this to fit into my new radical grace revelation.. and if they WERE believers it doesn't fit under what I am understanding grace to be. I don't want to be out of balance though... that's ugly plus NOT classy! ;)

ALL:
I was on another thread and I saw where someone said to go to the Christian board and see how much we don't see eye to eye on things. They concluded that you could interpret verses to mean whatever you like. That bothered me a lot. I hope I am not trying to twist scripture to make my thoughts on grace fit. If anyone thinks I am ever doing that, please feel free to let me know. I think for the most part we Christians agree on the most important things concerning the salvation and grace.

[Wondergirl]

Agreed, but it sounded as though you were saying that the deaths of A&S means "once saved, always saved" can't be correct. I think I missed something?

Their deaths have nothing to do with "once saved, always saved."

[jakester]

Jake

I'm just hard on you i decided. You are so smart and thoughtful in your answers and I like it better when you agree with me. I don't think we disagree on this topic. It is just that I want this to fit into my new radical grace revelation..and if they WERE believers it doesn't fit under what I am understanding grace to be. I don't want to be out of balance though...that's ugly plus NOT classy! ;)

ALL:
I was on another thread and I saw where someone said to go to the Christian board and see how much we don't see eye to eye on things. They concluded that you could interpret verses to mean whatever you like. That bothered me a lot. I hope I am not trying to twist scripture to make my thoughts on grace fit. if anyone thinks I am ever doing that, please feel free to let me know. I think for the most part we Christians agree on the most important things concerning the salvation and grace.

Tess - yes, I think we are in complete agreement here. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by radical grace revelation. I do think that if grace is really grace, it is radical in that it doesn't fit with how logically we'd expect God to deal with rebellious sinners... the fact that he shows mercy to us is outrageous on the one hand but on the other hand, it does fit God's character that he be merciful... it's just that he is not obligated to grant mercy. That's pretty radical if we are thinking about it correctly.

I think that once before when I read that passage I believed there to be something non-authentic about A&S, because just like you it seemed awfully troubling to think that God would kill them because they lied. Why didn't God kill Moses when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it? Why didn't God kill David when he slept with Bathsheba and had her husband put to death?

So, I'm very sympathetic to your view of grace and I really do think that A&S were unbelievers but again, the apostles don't say. It would be great if the text said something to this effect:

"'And take heed to yourselves this day whether you have an unbelieving spirit or not. Know that the Spirit of God will not be mocked; when you come to bring alms or gifts to your brothers, do it from faith, not to be seen of men.' For it became evident to all who were witnesses, that Ananias and Sapphira were struck down by the Lord because of their unbelief."

Since we don't have that explicit answer to our question (were they believers or not?) we are left to put the pieces together with the clues we have and the theology given to us by Old Testament, Jesus, and the Apostles.

So again, Tess, I agree with you... I just can't make the text say more than it does so that's why I hesitate to say unequivocally that it was so. Does that make sense?

[dwashbur]

Dave,

I don't know. we discussed this in another thread. I don't have all the answers but this much i do know..not a one of us is worthy to partake in and of ourselves and I don't care how much I think of to confess before I take it, i never get it all. I screw up and pretty much on a daily basis. I don't think these guys in cornith knew what they were doing. I don't think they were even doing it with the intent to sin. They just didn't take it to heart they didn't discern. It wasn't so much that the Lord was punishing them as it was they didn't believe in the finished work of Christ and they didn't understand that there was healing in his finished work. They were perishing for lack of knowledge.

That's as good an answer as any as far as I'm concerned. I know I don't "get it all" when I'm examining my heart, either; in that context I believe that God honors the effort and the intent. As far as the Corinthian people, Paul's description makes it sound as though they were a) using it as an excuse to drink too much, and 2) showing blatant favoritism to the wealthy and prominent and treating the "lesser" people like dirt. When he says they were "not discerning" the Lord's body it looks to me like they were missing the whole point of the love feast as a celebration of Jesus' death and resurrection. Whether it was a deliberate thing, or if they just got caught up in something and forgot what it was all about, I couldn't say.

And of course, whether those incidents have any relation to the Ananias and Sapphira episode is anybody's guess.

[TCheri]

Hey guys,

Love reading some of these posts. I just wanted to say one thing, there is no such thing as punishment for sin once you become a believer. Once you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, believed He died on the cross for you, rose from the dead and now sit at the right hand of God, there is no more punishment for sin. Of course you are going to have to carry the consequences of your actions if you move outside the will of God but He does not punish you EVER again. The reason I'm saying this is that the day that Jesus said "it is finished" ALL our (believers) sin was paid for. That is the gift of righteousness we have received. And yes, you can argue that this would, to some, seem like a license to sin but once you grasp the sacrifice that was made for you by the Son of God, would you really go out and go against the conviction of the Holy Spirit and sin without worrying about it? I don't think so. And the sin you do commit is already paid for. Jesus Christ was the FINAL sacrifice for our sin. If we were still going to be punished for sin we commit today then that would mean that atonement still needed to be made for that sin... hence the punishment from God??

With regards to A&S... merely my opinion, I have not studied it or anything but I think at that stage, with the establishment of the church people were freely giving what they had. The money that A&S had, by the selling of their land/property, was theirs and they could do with it what they wanted and yet they "gave it all" thinking that the Holy Spirit could be deceived. They wanted the status and thanks going to them for "offering up" all they had. If at a later stage it came to light to the other believers that A&S had lied, and thus deceived the Holy Spirit, what message would that send. Yet the Holy Spirit immediately notified them that dishonesty was in play. I don't know, just an opinion.

[TCheri]

Just a correction to my earlier mail. I said that all our (believers) sin was paid for. That believers should not be there as ALL our sins were paid for. It's just about the acceptance of that gift that makes the difference between heaven and hell.

Sorry about that.