[paraclete]

Evening, Clete

The markets here are terrible, im just thankful I live in the countryside and get alot of choice from local farms, I must admit though, its the egg or chicken question?

Did marketing dictate the policy of cheap. crap processed junk or was the demand from the comsumer

Did the marketing provide ease of microwaving or did the consumer demand the ease by allowing themselves to buy the product in the first place

I believe it was Sigmund Freud's nephew Edward Bernays who used the basis of physcology to invent marketing and the notion that keeps most of us going to work - you have the basic model, now look at the premium model with an extra button!

I think in a situtaion where marketing is creating a social problem of obesity which weighs heavily on the NHS and any other health system, the government have a responsibilty to promote healthy options, and even further to provide tax breaks on what is classed as the salads and fruits etc, and add the lost tax put onto the junk

The same should be said for smoking drinking etc

However, I do not believe in prohibition in any form

Within a capalist economy, the black market is a by product of Bernays wants and desires, and yet we happily create one with banning of certain drugs

If we ban sugar or other related snack foods, we would just create a criminal network of chocalate smugglers

I believe in the education of the truth to provide a sound choice of freedom, which can only been done through government regulations, all of which is woefully lacking in the ability to carry out such duties

As regards your supermarkets, I love the one just outside Sydney where you can drive into the chiller and order your cases of larger, a drive through liquor store - Brillant :)

Steve we have already bitten the bullet with heavy excise on alcohol and tobacco. Alcohol would probably cost me twice what it would cost you and our supermarkets have taken to not selling eggs from battery hens, which I think is the reality of a consumer backlash. Drive through liquor stores are a feature of most pubs here and you don't even have to get out of the car if you are paying cash. We have every convenience but not much sense but there is no black market here, no need for it because nothing is in short supply or over expensive thus obesity is running high. Our government fights hard to decouple alcohol and tobacco advertising from sport and even general display but consumption keeps growing adding to the cost of our health scheme. I expect our government will move to price tobacco out of the reach of the average person

[phlanx]

Hello Clete,

I find with interest you think you don't have a black market in Oz, I am afraid to tell you, that you do, and probably don't relaise it

I think most western governments are pushing in the same direction on health issues and taxing bad products

We too have a push for free range egss but it has not gone far enough yet, personally we get our eggs from a farm down the road where you can see the chucks running about (like headless chickens really) and the taste difference is fantastic, plus you don't get double yokers often in battery hens

I have never suported the idea that someone can't choose to do something just because it might had to the cost of the state

Givernments arguments are antisocial and destructive, as humans we have this insane instinct, told we can't have it so we want it more

I believe we have a responsibility to work towards being a healthy society but at the same time, if I want to eat grease, get drunk and smoke a cigerette then I should be ableto do without feeling threatened

[tomder55]

If you start taxing tobacco to death there will be a black market. We have it here with smuggling from lower taxed states to higher taxed states. If I'm not wrong tobacco running to England(about 20% of the market ) helps fund jihadistan;and smuggling to Ireland helps fund the IRA .
That's why it makes me laugh when people like the dopy Governor of California thinks he can legalize pot and tax it to death to fill the state's kitty while at the same time eliminating the illegal trade.

Clete fails to mention the black market for cheap labor .

[phlanx]

Evening Tom

Regardless of race or creed, there is ablack market

What I find even more incredible is we are fighting in Afganistan, trying to get the farmers not to plant the poppies

They do of course, send the herion to the teliban who in turn send it to our shores for our cops to gight the war

If they legalised herion, the taliban wouldn't be able to get their money as the farmers would be paid direct, and the resources of the cops would be lowed

The herion addicts could then be educated and receive treatment so further crime drops and other services receive a boost in tax

Didn't know arnie wanted to legalise dope, to be honest, I think all drugs should be leaglised, then controlled through education

The extra tax from it would help fuel the economy

As regards your comments on the cigerette trade, it is two fold, smuggling in from europe is still just criminal related, whereas import from china is linked with the asian community

The IRA is all but gobe, having renounced violence, other factions have followed or are following suit, so most actiuvity these days in this country is criminal profit only

As regards cheap labour, it is actually a requirement of all capitalised countries to have imported cheap labour - heard that from the Chancellor of Germany in one of her speaches - nearly fell of my chair when I found out

[paraclete]

If you start taxing tobacco to death there will be a black market. We have it here with smuggling from lower taxed states to higher taxed states. If I'm not wrong tobacco running to England(about 20% of the market ) helps fund jihadistan;and smuggling to Ireland helps fund the IRA .
That's why it makes me laugh when people like the dopy Governor of California thinks he can legalize pot and tax it to death to fill the state's kitty while at the same time eliminating the illegal trade.

Clete fails to mention the black market for cheap labor .

Cheap labour, you mean cash in hand, Tom, or exploitation of illegal migrants? I wasn't referring to that as a black market or the results of illegal activities such as drugs. I was referring to a highly organised market in smuggled goods. Like everywhere else we have things that fall off the backs of trucks, but because our tax system is federal it is uniform and doesn't create the imbalances that promote internal smuggling on a large scale. We have very low tariffs on most goods so there isn't much incentive. Legalising pot would create the same market as for tobacco and take the super profits out of the industry, It won't stop people growing it, but it is interesting, you don't see people with tobacco plants in their back yards and stills are a rarity. Governments for a long time have found it profitable to tax commodity markets, Maybe there is good market for poppies to be taxed

[paraclete]

Hello Clete,

I find with interest you think you dont have a black market in Oz, I am afraid to tell you, that you do, and probably dont relaise it

I think most western governments are pushing in the same direction on health issues and taxing bad products

We too have a push for free range egss but it has nto gone far enough yet, personally we get our eggs from a farm down the road where you can see the chucks running about (like headless chickens really) and the taste difference is fantastic, plus you dont get double yokers often in battery hens

I have never suported the idea that someone can't choose to do something just because it might had to the cost of the state

Givernments arguments are antisocial and destructive, as humans we have this insane instinct, told we can't have it so we want it more

I belive we have a responsibilty to work towards being a healthy society but at the same time, if I want to eat grease, get drunk and smoke a cigerette then I should be ableto do without feeling threatened

These things are a matter of definition Steve see my reply to Tom. Anti social behavior must be controlled that's what we have governments for. I have no objection to you eating grease, getting drunk, and smoking in your own home, even petrol sniffing, you can spend your money how you want but polluting my environment I do object to, and paying for your excesses I do object to, so if government taxes you to pay for it, so be it. People do sometimes have to be protected from themselves for the good of society

[phlanx]

People do sometimes have to be protected from themselves for the good of society

Society clete will kick you in the bottom if you think that "protecting" people from themselves is the way forward

Alienation of a population will occur and they will rebel

I am all for eductaion, but simply banning or removal rules are not the way forward

We all have to die of something clete, so whichever way, it usually ends up costing the tax payer money, so whether self inflicted or not, people have freedom of choice and that includes how they wish to live their lives regardless of the consequences

Or do you wish to see a nanny state where you are told how and when and by whom just for the good of the society

Don't forget, whether scientists prove it or not, living next door to chemicals plants, huge electricity pylons, increases the chances of cancer, so you can be clean living and still and up in hospital due to societies thurst for materials

[tomder55]

People do sometimes have to be protected from themselves for the good of society

In the old days they called that serfdom.

[NeedKarma]

In the old days they called that serfdom.

No it wasn't:
serf - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
"a member of a servile feudal class bound to the land and subject to the will of its owner"
That's more like the slaves you americans had in the south.

[tomder55]

In the feudal days the central government did not have the ability to protect the people. So the landowner assumed that responsibility .The trade off was loss of freedom for protection.

[NeedKarma]

So what's the excuse for all the obese people? Just stupid decision-making?

[tomder55]

Some of it yes. I don't see the compelling public interest . The nanny state solution would be to restrict the food available for everyone to protect those who have a weight problem .

It's one size fits all nannystate remedies that lead to abuses like this .
Secret court seizes £3.2bn from elderly and mentally impaired | Mail Online

[NeedKarma]

What is this "Nanny state" expression you use so damn much?

[phlanx]

Helloe Needkarma

A Nanny State, is one where you are babysat.

The government tell you what to eat, what to wear, what to drive, how to work etc

It covers all areas of your lives and removes the freedom of choice

I believe it is the responsibility of a government to provide the truth, educate the truth and advertise the truth

Problem is, we all know when and where politicians have covered up the truth, told lies, and broken the law

So how can a government provide education when most people are not willing to listen anymore

As regards the newspaper article on the secret court by Tomder, here in the UK Family Court is a closed session to all except the family concerned and court officials

This is to protect the family from outside influence and provide a safe place to inform the truth

In addition, we have privacy here at the heart of our homes, and as such anything that happens in the home (except breaking crimincal law) is private and will remain private

However, as with all systems they will work againt those that they were trying to help, not all but a small percentage

[NeedKarma]

A Nanny State, is one where you are babysat.

The government tell you what to eat, what to wear, what to drive, how to work etc

It covers all areas of your lives and removes the freedom of choice

Ah I see. It seems to be just hyberbole to be argumentative since the US, Canada or the UK is nowhere near that since all have free choice. Thanks for the heads up.

[tomder55]

When gvt policy is enacted to compell people to act in what the gvt perceives to be that person's best interest then that is a nanny-state policy. Public education is one thing . Making laws to enforce that behavior is different. The nannystate presumes that the judgment of an administrator is superior to that of individuals.

[NeedKarma]

Has anything changed in your day-to-day life in the past couple of years? Have you been restricted in doing anything that you did before? What are you afraid of?

[paraclete]

The nannystate presumes that the judgment of an administrator is superior to that of individuals.

And in many cases it is, however we have learned that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and so caution is needed in public policy decisions. Public health demands a solution in which no person will be without care by reason of inability to pay and yet care is not restricted to those who can pay.

The same is true of food distribution and accommodation. This is not our finest hour so far but we all have a responsibility which cannot be shurked by reason of advantage. You might think this is a liberal response but in fact is a sensible humanitarian response because we have the means to do it without serious imposition on the individual. What I fail to see here is that if a nation of 20 million people could accomplish this to the most part why a nation of 360 million with high income per capita cannot?

[phlanx]

I understand what clete is saying having experienced it for myself, the standard of living in Australia is amazing, the food is fresh and tasty, accommodation is overall good, and the beer is free flowing

I do have ever think there are some things in australia which is complimentary to the way any western world works

Most of our ancestors and some people here have fought for that simple phrase, Freedom of Choice

However when it is exercised, and inevitably some people shorten their lives, cost the system money in health care, society stands up and states it wrong and something should be done

In reality, if I want to go to MaccyDs for every meal I can, If I want to eat fresh salad, fruit and steamed fish I can, If I want a mixture of the two I can

Regardless of what the causes are, people will end up in hospital or dead on the floor at some point, what we have in the middle is our freedom to choice on how that comes about

As such, a health care system must be there for everyone, they must not judge, decline treatment due to what someone believes are the wrong choices made, but educate, comfort, provide care and counciling wherever the bad choices occur

[ETWolverine]

Ah I see. It seems to be just hyberbole to be argumentative since the US, Canada or the UK is nowhere near that since all have free choice. Thanks for the heads up.

Really?

Government is now telling us what types of toilets we can use and what kind of toilet paper.

Government tells us how to get rid of bottles and newspapers.

Government has banned trans fats.

Government tells us what kind of lightbulbs we can use.

Government tells us how fuel efficient our cars have to be.

Government is TRYING to pass legislation to control our thermostats for us.

Government is trying to control how our doctors get paid, what medical tests we can get, and when we can see the doctor. (Your government alread controls those things.)

Government is trying to pass legislation to tax anything with sugar in it.

Government now controls how much the company you work for is allowed to pay for your salary.

All of this, of course, is being done for the greater good of the country or the world.

You think that government ISN'T trying to control every aspect of your life? You think that "nanny statism" is hyperbole?

If you do, then you are a fool.

Elliot