[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl ,
I told the truth about me.
I do not hold it disrespectful of any others who do so about themselves. In fact I stick up for them to be able to chose the faith they decided on.
If you find my story disrespectful I'm sorry for you that you do.
That's like the atheists who claim it is disrespectful for a Chrsitian to admit that they are Chrsitians.
But even so I respect the atheists right to be as the choose to be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Your first sentence ("The more posts we have on Luther the more interesting this thread becomes.") would have been sufficient. I'm so happy you are glad to be Catholic and no longer one of those misdirected Lutherans. And now you are sorry for me. Gee thanks, Fred. Again, this is why the Christianity board dissolves into arguments, especially between you and Tom -- e.g. "my church is better than your church, and my beliefs are better than your beliefs."

[arcura]

Wondergirl
Please be accurate.
Where did I say that my beliefs are better than yours?
As I have said many times I respect the right of others to believe as they want to and that includes you and Tom Smith.
For your information I still hold the Lutheran Church in high regard for it was the Lutherans who taught me first about Jesus Christ and to love and follow him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

How about "Also the more happy I am that I left that denomination many years ago...."

Thank God you left that denomination... relief for leaving a terribly misguided group and all its confused adherents is implicit in your words.

Your first statement was lovely and very true -- "The more posts we have on Luther the more interesting this thread becomes."

[Akoue]

Well this has come to a screeching halt...

[Wondergirl]

Well this has come to a screeching halt...

Ok, Akoue. It's all up to you. How much did Luther's physical health affect what he did and how he did it? A few historians blame his stomach problems and depression.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
I did not know that Luther had such problems.
A man with stomach problems can be very much affected by that.
I know because I had severe stomach problems and eventually passed out from it.
I spend a month in the hospital getting it taken care of.
I now must wear a colostomy pouch but all the pain is gone.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Akoue]

Ok, Akoue. It's all up to you. How much did Luther's physical health affect what he did and how he did it? A few historians blame his stomach problems and depression.

Oh, sure, dump it in my lap, why don't you.

It actually makes a lot of sense to me that Luther, who suffered physically for many years, could be made irascible by his ailments. And I don't think this reflects poorly on him: As a monk, we know that he was in terrible physical pain a good deal of the time. It would sure make me cranky. That said, even though I obviously have my problems with Luther, I tend not to want to psychoanalyze him too much. It feels a bit phony to me (and just me--this isn't a criticism of those who do it).

I prefer to look at his actions and his writings and to try to understand and assess them without trying to climb into his head too terribly much (though sometimes it's unavoidable, I suspect). As I said earlier, I don't claim to know his intentions, and I very much doubt anyone else does, but his actions trouble me... and not just because I don't agree with him a lot of the time. In fairness to the man, he may not have known what exactly his intentions were--we often don't realize our own intentions and motivations at the time we act but until later, after we've had a chance to reflect.

So he may have thought of himself as a humble servant at the beginning, but the very rapid hardening of his position says something. I'm just not entirely sure what. And I don't think it can be adequately explained by appealing to the refusal of the other side to meet him halfway since, as we know, Eck tried that more than once and was rebuffed.

[Wondergirl]

Oh, sure, dump it in my lap, why don't you.

See!! You outdid yourself! I knew you were up to the task.

As I said earlier, I don't claim to know his intentions, and I very much doubt anyone else does

I suspect when he lost control of his theses, things went to hell in a handbasket, and he was forced to defend his position six ways from Sunday.

[Akoue]

To be sure the translation of the Theses into the vernacular, coupled with their wide dissemination, added a layer of complexity. The Church could not, then, respond solely in the manner of an academic disputation.

Here's my thing about that: Luther's early publications in the immediate aftermath of this were downright vitriolic. So he didn't try to tamp down the situation from his end, even as the Church was trying to engage in this debate he called for with the Theses themselves. He acted in a way that was guaranteed to cause escalation, while at the same time refusing to participate in an honest debate of ideas. And this doesn't look to me like the actions of someone who didn't embrace schism as a goal. Now, I may very well be wrong--I have no privileged access to the contents of Luther's mental states--but his *actions* weren't those of someone who "loved his Church". At the end of the day, I can only speak to his actions, not his psychology, and this is why I say I find it very difficult to buy into the idea that he was motivated by a loving zeal to reform the Church. His actions just aren't consonant with that as far as I can tell.

[Wondergirl]

To be sure the translation of the Theses into the vernacular, coupled with their wide dissemination, added a layer of complexity. The Church could not, then, respond solely in the manner of an academic disputation.

Here's my thing about that: Luther's early publications in the immediate aftermath of this were downright vitriolic. So he didn't try to tamp down the situation from his end, even as the Church was trying to engage in this debate he called for with the Theses themselves. He acted in a way that was guaranteed to cause escalation, while at the same time refusing to participate in an honest debate of ideas. And this doesn't look to me like the actions of someone who didn't embrace schism as a goal. Now, I may very well be wrong--I have no privileged access to the contents of Luther's mental states--but his *actions* weren't those of someone who "loved his Church". At the end of the day, I can only speak to his actions, not his psychology, and this is why I say I find it very difficult to buy into the idea that he was motivated by a loving zeal to reform the Church. His actions just aren't consonant with that as far as I can tell.

You are equating the Church with the men who ran the Church. Luther loved the one and disrespected the other.

[Akoue]

You are equating the Church with the men who ran the Church. Luther loved the one and disrespected the other.

I don't think I'm equating them. I'm not trying to be coy here: I've re-read what I wrote and don't think I've done this. But, as I so often say, I may be missing something.

In any case, though, I don't see how that would change anything about what I've said. If Luther had not wanted schism, if he wanted to reform the Church and preserve its unity, then he would, I think, have comported himself differently. He might, at the VERY least, have engaged in the debate he himself called for. Instead, he chose to be a polemicist.

[arcura]

Akoue,
I speak from experience having had stomach pain for a long time.
I was often sad or confused or angry that at first the doctors could not determine what my problem was.
At time it was difficult to carry on a decent conversation with anyone including family members.
So I tried to avoid speaking with them and that upset them.
I asked the priest for healing prayers and he did lay hands on me trying to help me and get God's help.
For several days that seemed to help but when the pain came back I was disappointed and angry and confused.
Finally after a cat scan it was determined what my problem was but I passed out and was out for two weeks having had 2 heart attacks.
When I woke up the priest came to the hospital and asked me if I wanted last rights. In anger I said no it will not do any good and I did feel that way at the time. It was foolish of me to say that but I was under some drugs and confused,
Later I spoke with my priest about that and told him that if ever I was in the same situation, please don't ask me about last rights, just do it.
I think he understood.
Through all that I did not want to change the Mass or attack the pope. Something like that never crossed my mind.
Then again I was not like Luther wanting to make some changes in the Church for I was not a monk or a priest with things like that on my mind.
BUT, having had such an experience I can see where Luther may have been driven by pain and frustration to become and extremist at times and an isolationist as well.
Now I am happy that the Church has reversed Father Luther's expulsion.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Akoue,
I speak from experience having had stomach pain for a long time.
I was often sad or confused or angry that at first the doctors could not determine what my problem was.
At time it was difficult to carry on a decent conversation with anyone including family members.
So I tried to avoid speaking with them and that upset them.
I asked the priest for healing prayers and he did lay hands on me trying to help me and get God's help.
For several days that seemed to help but when the pain came back I was disappointed and angry and confused.
Finally after a cat scan it was determined what my problem was but I passed out and was out for two weeks having had 2 heart attacks.
When I woke up the priest came to the hospital and asked me if I wanted last rights. In anger I said no it will not do any good and I did feel that way at the time. It was foolish of me to say that but I was under some drugs and confused,
Later I spoke with my priest about that and told him that if ever I was in the same situation, please don't ask me about last rights, just do it.
I think he understood.
Through all that I did not want to change the Mass or attack the pope. Something like that never crossed my mind.
Then again I was not like Luther wanting to make some changes in the Church for I was not a monk or a priest with things like that on my mind.
BUT, having had such an experience I can see where Luther may have been driven by pain and frustration to become and extremist at times and an isolationist as well.
Now I am happy that the Church has reversed Father Luther's expulsion.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thank you, Fred.
That was a beautiful testimony.
Peace and kindness,
Carol

[Akoue]

Fred,

That was one of the loveliest things I've read in some time. Thank you so much.

[arcura]

Wondergirl and Akoue,
Thank you.
Having learned about Father Luther's stomach problems I much more understand him than I did previously.
Again the lesson is learned that it is difficult to reach a good conclusion if a person does not know the whole story.
I seem to have to have that lesson retaught from time to time.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

To all...

Always try to remember, when you are pointing the finger of blame, there are three pointed back at you..

~In the Spirit of love, we can conquer evil

[arcura]

sndbay
That's what has been said so some folks point with their whole hand.
However they can still be in error.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

sndbay
That's what has been said so some folks point with their whole hand.
However they can still be in error.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hint:
That may be so Fred, but they sure won't be staying around after Christ writes in the sand, now will they?

[arcura]

sndbay,
Christ has already written in the sand and people still make errors.
Some do so out of ignorance and still others do so on purpose or some other reason.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

sndbay,
Christ has already written in the sand and people still make errors.
Some do so out of ignorance and still others do so on purpose or some other reason.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred I wish I could just give you a green agree, But it won't allow me to do so..

So I will agree by posting, and say: yes, it is true that men remain sinful in nature. And it is written that lack of knowledge will be to their destruction (Hsa 4:6)

I have experience on another thread, where some in their lack of knowledge have decided to give me red in disagreement .. It shows lack of knowledge in understand the simplicity of Christ being the only way to the Father.. Instead in mind they choose to follow Oprah and her false teaching.


How fast judgement is mad without understand or looking to the content of what is said.

Remain patient and suffer those things done in His Name, for God finds it pleasing to do so... (1 Peter 2:15-16)