[N0help4u]

AND I still do not see where you get purgatory other than a Pope/the Church started it in whatever century

[Tj3]

Where and when does He cleanse us from all unrighteousness?

Sigh! How many times is it necessary to post the reference?

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Jesus died for our sins so that we could pay the price for our sins.

Really?

Heb 1:1-3
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NKJV

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

Note that salvation is a gift, not something that we must pay for, assuming that we had any way to pay the price for our sins. And we certainly do not pay after we are dead - the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us while we are alive:

Rom 6:22-23
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
NKJV

Note that Paul is speaking to the Christians in Rome, and saying that they are free from sin.

Again, lets look at the case of the child who breaks the neighbors window. You have to pay the price for the window because the child has no money of his own. Do you let the child go unpunished?

So are you saying that Jesus lied, and that He did not pay the price for our sins on the cross? Are you saying that God must abide by your judgment and not forgive us of our sins through the cleansing of the blood?

Rom 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV

[sndbay]

I hope that answers your question. Please answer mine. What are works of iniquity to you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Christ is worthy as the Savior of the World!! Mine are redeemed.. as a believer in Christ..

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[Tj3]

Not at all Tom.

First, Scripture says that:

Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Who do you think is testing your works? Who do you think I believe is purifying our soul? Certainly it isn't a real fire in an actual stove. It is God!

Therefore, this verse explains it all very well.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

But if not, let me give you a bit of background. What are the Seraphim? The burning ones. Why are they burning? Because they are close to God.

It is God, the Consuming Fire who is burning with love for us. It is into this Fire that we who are going to Heaven will be thrust. But we won't be burned. We will be like the Seraphim:

Exodus 3 2 And the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he saw that the bush was on fire and was not burnt.

But those who are imperfectly pure will suffer loss, but they will be saved:

Proverbs 17 3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.

And those who have hated God all their lives and want nothing to do with Him will suffer His presence anyway. Where would they go?

Acts Of Apostles 17 28 For in him we live, and move, and are;....

Psalms 138 8 If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I noticed in that whole list of verses taken out of context, you did not once address the verse that I posted:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV

We are present with the Lord, not in purgatory. Quoted it once, but did not address it.

[De Maria]

I noticed in that whole list of verses taken out of context, you did not once address the verse that I posted:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV

We are present with the Lord, not in purgatory. Quoted it once, but did not address it.

Read it again. Its right there. To summarize, if the Lord is God and if God is the Consuming Fire, it is God who purifies us in Purgatory when we die and are present with Him.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Christ is worthy as the Savior of the World!! Mine are redeemed.. as a believer in Christ..

No doubt!

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The question is, "what are works of iniquity?"

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

The question is, "what are works of iniquity?"

Sincerely,

De Maria

I thought that you already agreed that sin is iniquity. Are you backtracking on that?

[Tj3]

Read it again. Its right there. To summarize, if the Lord is God and if God is the Consuming Fire, it is God who purifies us in Purgatory when we die and are present with Him.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sigh! So you are saying that heaven is purgatory and is flaming punishment for our sins?

Look at the context of that passage. It would be hard to force fit purgatory anywhere into it:

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
NKJV

And if Jesus cleansed us from all iniquity, there is nothing to burn.

[sndbay]

No doubt!


The question is, "what are works of iniquity?"

Sincerely,

De Maria

1) the condition of without law

a) because ignorant of it

b) because of violating it

2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

DeMaria I ask again, Are you somehow saying the authority of the church here on earth somehow can help us in paying back for our penance?

I feel we can expect to be given a lesson in teaching from the Father when we make the wrong choices on our path in life. And that we are told to rejoice in His teaching.

Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
Proverbs 22:8 He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

[N0help4u]

I still want to know why if God can elaborate on the Judgments, the crowns, the seals and the trumpets why would he neglect mentioning going to purgatory to cleanse any undealt with sin?

[sndbay]

I still want to know why if God can elaborate on the Judgments, the crowns, the seals and the trumpets why would he neglect mentioning going to purgatory to cleanse any undealt with sin?

There is a 2nd advent period of teaching before the final fire pit.. And there are 2 sides in heaven refer; as the gulf... Knowing that the one side is for righteousness and the other side for torment. DEMaria, is this what the church is calling purgatory?

[N0help4u]

2nd advent period of teaching before the final fire pit. Where in the Bible is that?

[Tj3]

2nd advent period of teaching before the final fire pit. where in the Bible is that?

Good question!

And the reference to the 2 sides in heaven is also not in scripture - I think that he is mixing up heaven with Hades and Abraham's Bosom, where there are two sides and a gulf.

[N0help4u]

Yeah what I was thinking sndby meant too but I always thought that that 'gulf' was done away with after Jesus resurrection?

[De Maria]

Sigh! How many times is it necessary to post the reference?

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

This says He cleanses us. It doesn't say where and when.

Really?

Really.

Heb 1:1-3
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NKJV

Note the word "purged". This is precisely the root word of "Purgatory".

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

That is true. No denial of purgatory here.

Note that salvation is a gift,

As is Purgatory. It is a gift of God's mercy for those who are not pure enough to enter heaven.

not something that we must pay for, assuming that we had any way to pay the price for our sins.

And yet we must work.

James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.

And we certainly do not pay after we are dead - the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us while we are alive:

Rom 6:22-23
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
NKJV

Then why do we hope?

Romans 8 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience.

Are we already perfect?

Philippians 3 12 Not as though I has already attained, or were already perfect; but I follow after, if I may by any means apprehend, wherein I am also apprehended by Christ Jesus.

Note that Paul is speaking to the Christians in Rome, and saying that they are free from sin

.

But why does he, two verses prior say that they are infirm of the flesh. Is it because they might backslide?

19 I speak an human thing, because of the infirmity of your flesh. For as you have yielded your members to serve uncleanness and iniquity, unto iniquity; so now yield your members to serve justice, unto sanctification.

So are you saying that Jesus lied, and that He did not pay the price for our sins on the cross?

No. Again, the example of the child who breaks the window. If the Father pays the neighbor. This is like Christ paying for our sins. But then, if the father punishes the child or requires the child to pay from his allowance. This is like us having to pay for our sins, even though Christ has already paid for them as well.

1 Corinthians 11 32 But whilst we are judged, we are chastised by the Lord, that we be not condemned with this world.

Are you saying that God must abide by your judgment and not forgive us of our sins through the cleansing of the blood?

See 1 Cor 11:32 above. It is God who judges, God who chastises us, because we are His children:

Hebrews 12 6 For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Tell me, why are we chastised if not for our sins?

Rom 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV

And yet:
31 Do we, then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid: but we establish the law.

So what does that mean? Do you think that St. Paul is teaching we must not work? Read Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11 7 By faith Noe, having received an answer concerning those things which as yet were not seen, moved with fear, framed the ark for the saving of his house, by the which he condemned the world; and was instituted heir of the justice which is by faith.

Hebrews 11 8 By faith he that is called Abraham, obeyed to go out into a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Isn't it funny, by faith the Saints worked?

Oh and we are debtors:
Romans 8 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Whom do we owe, what must we repay?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

yeah what I was thinking sndby meant too but I always thought that that 'gulf' was done away with after Jesus resurrection?

Scripture appears to suggest that when Jesus was resurrected, those who were in Abraham's bosom were brought into heaven.

[N0help4u]

Yeah that is the way I took it and then there was no need for that place any more because they were waiting for that day.

[Tj3]

This says He cleanses us. It doesn't say where and when.

Scripture does indeed. I pointed this out to you.

Rom 6:22-23
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
NKJV

Note the word "purged". This is precisely the root word of "Purgatory".

Exactly and since Jesus already purged the sins of believers (past tense), there is nothing for us to purge.

End of story.

That is true. No denial of purgatory here.

Actually there is. We don't pay for a gift.

Oh and we are debtors:
Romans 8 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Whom do we owe, what must we repay?

Read the context:

Rom 8:12-17
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Those who live according top the flesh have a debt to pay. Those who are saved are heirs.

Let's also go back earlier in this passage:

Rom 8:1-11
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NKJV

BTW, in the past you have demonstrated a tendency tp keep making your messages longer and longer until it was impossible to follow the thread. You will note, as I have told you this in the past - if you choose to post a long message rather than focusing on the point that you are trying to make, I will choose to boil your post down to what I think is the key focus of you message and focus on that point. Thus, if you want a point to stand out, keep your messages short and to the point.

[N0help4u]

We are purified of the effects of sin which we committed for which we have repented and been forgiven.
why would we have to be purified of something that God said he cast away as far as the East is from the West?
Sounds like double jeopardy to me!

[sndbay]

yeah what I was thinking sndby meant too but I always thought that that 'gulf' was done away with after Jesus resurrection?

No I would have the opinion that that today, there are thousands who still do not find Christ as their Savior. And of course we have murderers and etc.. Thus there is still the need for the gulf.