[arcura]

classyT ,
Dr Paul Thigpen wrote "The Rapture Trap"
Yes Catholics can eat pork.
Jesus said what goes into the mouth is not unclean but what come out often is.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[classyT]

Oooh... well SND will disagree with that pork eating stuff. ( get him SND... hee hee.. ahh don't worry Acura she likes you, I get on her last nerve!) I will check out the book.. ONLY because you recommended it and to prove I am NOT as stubborn as I appear... (lol).

Hey, jesus did say that didn't he..?. very true!

We agreed again.

[sndbay]

Paul examples to us that his teaching of Christ "THE WORD" was not of man's wisdom. And your faith should not stand in wisdom of men.

I Corinthians2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Christ was raise to heaven by the power of God.

[ashley0716]

The Bible clearly states that there will be 7 years of tribulation, and it breaks it down for us: three and a half years will be peace and prosperity, the antichrist will be successful in bringing all the nations together, and, as ClassyT said, using a worldwide economic system, this is where the mark of the beast comes in. It has to do with the economy and the mark will be necessary to buy and sell and basically to survive. After the first three and a half years, the antichrist will reveal his "true" colors and the world will suffer all of God's wrath. The controversy among most Christians is WHEN the rapture will occur, BEFORE the tribulation or MID tribulation? The one thing the Lord cautions us of though is that if any Christian is here on earth when the mark of the beast comes into play, to NOT TAKE THE MARK, it is irreversible damnation to hell, but he who denies the mark, upon death will be granted eternal life. Now, the Bible never does come out and specifically use the word "rapture" but there are many many clues to ease our Christian hearts that God will save us from the turmoil that is to come to earth. After the 7 year tribulation, those that survived it and did not take the mark, will be the ones to procreate the earth again during God's thousand year here on earth, which is going to be as God originally designed it, before Adam and Eve chose to sin, pure perfection.

[classyT]

SND,

Well, I do occasionally pick up a book a brother in the Lord has written. That doesn't mean that I believe every word in it, nor would I treat it as the WORD of God. It isn't a sin to read someone else's thoughts on scripture. I actually enjoy doing that from time to time. Course getting YOUR thoughts on a scripture is like pulling teeth. I so enjoyed your last scripture quote to Fred.. about Hypocrites... LOL. :) I'm sure I have no idea what you meant by THAT one. ;)

[classyT]

Ash,

I totally agree with you. I believe in pre-trib rapture obviously... what do you think?

[Galveston1]

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(KJV)

1Thes 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

The above verses describe the rapture.


II Th 2:1-4
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)

These verses would seem to contridict the previous ones UNTIL you understand that the Day Of the LORD is the day of His judgment, i.e. the Great Tribulation.
The "falling away" we are seeing right now. A generation ago, nearly everyone believed in God, whether they were saved or not. Now men openly blaspheme Him.
The "man of sin" will be revealed AFTER the rapture and BEFORE the GREAT TRIBULATION.


Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

This cleary shows that Jesus will bring His saints WITH Him when he comes back to judge the world.
SND believes these are angels, but look at this.

Rev 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
(KJV)

These saints are plainly on the earth. These are saved people, mostly Jewish who are saved AFTER the rapture. So if these humans are saints, how can you say that the saints that return with Jesus are angels?

Now for Fred's objections.

1Thes 5:3-5
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
(KJV)

Christ's return will take the world by surprise, as a thief in the night, but it will NOT take the Christians by surprise. The Holy Spirit warns us, and we are now feeling the warning!

[ashley0716]

ClassyT, I know a lot of people who even believe in a POST trib rapture. Now I agree that a mid trib rapture is possible, but the rapture is supposed to occur at a time when NO ONE expects and if the whole world gets to experience 3 1/2 years of peace and prosperity, won't we know what's to come? And as far as the post trib rapture, God promises to spare us from the hell on earth that is about to occur, so I believe in the pre trib rapture.

[sndbay]

These verses would seem to contridict the previous ones UNTIL you understand that the Day Of the LORD is the day of His judgment, ie, the Great Tribulation.
The "falling away" we are seeing right now. A generation ago, nearly everyone believed in God, whether they were saved or not. Now men openly blaspheme Him.
The "man of sin" will be revealed AFTER the rapture and BEFORE the GREAT TRIBULATION.

WATCH

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the [abomination of desolation], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let him that readeth understand, then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mark 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mark13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Matthew 24:21 Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Tribulation First:read of the Woes,here come satan who has access to any without the seal of God in their head. A scorpion can sting and turn the body to mush.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 9:2-5 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Revelation 9:12One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Read the 2nd and 3r Woe (Revelation 11:14)


Christ Returns The Lord's Day This will be the beginning of the millenium, a thousand year. Those that failed Tribulation, won't reign with Christ during the thousand years, but those who did not receive the mark will reign with Christ here on earth a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

What's The Lord's Day Equal
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:2-3 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

[B]We are changed to a spiritual soul and raised as promised at the Last Trumpet. Those that believed and were baptized, converted as a child of God. Who can say who will be judged to reign during the thousand years with Christ, but I do know who the dead are and they walk in Christ on earth.It says they will not live until after the thousand years. (life after death Heaven)

After the first resurrection and the thousand year reign, and after satan is released for a little time for the final death.Then comes the last trump changed to life everlasting... From dead to life..
1 Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for [the trumpet shall sound], and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1 Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Full Circle..

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [His] resurrection:

[classyT]

ClassyT, I know a lot of people who even believe in a POST trib rapture. Now i agree that a mid trib rapture is possible, but the rapture is supposed to occur at a time when NO ONE expects and if the whole world gets to experience 3 1/2 years of peace and prosperity, won't we know what's to come? And as far as the post trib rapture, God promises to spare us from the hell on earth that is about to occur, so I believe in the pre trib rapture.

Well, I agree with Galveston, the church is not going to be surprised for the rapture... the world will not expect the second coming. The anit-Christ comes on the scene proclaimng Peace and safety, but then we know there will be sudden destruction. It is a 7 year tribulation period. I alsways wonder why people think the Lord calls it tribulation... because it is going to be that is why. It just gets worse the last 3 1/2 years and then that is called the great tribulation.But the first 3 1/2 years is not going to be a picnic. That is how I read it.

[sndbay]

This cleary shows that Jesus will bring His saints WITH Him when he comes back to judge the world.
SND believes these are angels, but look at this.

Rev 13:7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
(KJV)

These saints are plainly on the earth. These are saved people, mostly Jewish who are saved AFTER the rapture. So if these humans are saints, how can you say that the saints that return with Jesus are angels?

This is the telling of the attack by satan on the saints from above while they are here on earth after the millinium thousand years, so this is after the first resurrection and is the final wrath of God on satan.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Please look who you are speak of as him... it is satan who is given to make war with the saints, and yes power was given to him for that time period known after the first resurrection. Satan is the great tribulation even before this single time frame that you are discussing.

Please be aware that Christ has never brought tribulation to the earth.. It is evil that bring tribulation whenever it is spoken of in scripture.

Christ will end satan with the wrath of God in putting an end to evil. (punishment by the accountablility of action) We will have no part in the final stage of satan, because we have been gather to a safe place being feed in the wilderness as spoke of in scripture. (refer Revelation 20:8-10)END of satan

(Refer 13:6 he is satan)

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

[Galveston1]

[

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

[B]We are changed to a spiritual soul and raised as promised at the Last Trumpet. Those that believed and were baptized, converted as a child of God. Who can say who will be judged to reign during the thousand years with Christ, but I do know who the dead are and they walk in Christ on earth.It says they will not live until after the thousand years. (life after death Heaven)

Rev 20:5-6
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(KJV)

Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

You see here that the first resurrection is of the dead in Christ (saved people) and the unsaved are not raised until some time after the Millennium when they will be judged according to their WORKS.
NOTE: Saved people are NOT judged according to their WORKS but according to their FAITH in Jesus Christ. There will bo no saved people in the last resurrection.

I think you have a lot of your facts right, but your sequence of events is incorrect.

I show you this again.

Jude 1:14
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(KJV)

You have not dealt with this other than to say the saints are angels, which idea I challenge does not square with other scriptures. I say they are redeemed people from all the history of planet Earth who died in faith. The fact that they come with the Lord proves they met Him previous to His return. This makes the rapture have to be either before the great tribulation or during it. I believe scripture shows it to be before.

[RustyFairmount]

What difference does it make if you know the exact date that the rapture will happen? Are you going to sin and ask for forgiveness moments before the rapture? If so, you're a sorry excuse for a Christian.

The end is nigh! Yes! The rapture could happen tomorrow. So ask yourself how you lived TODAY. Were you a good Christian? Did you forgive? Did you avoid sinning?

If you are truly saved, then there's no reason to worry about the date. Only sinners worry about the date of the rapture.

[classyT]

What difference does it make if you know the exact date that the rapture will happen? Are you going to sin and ask for forgiveness moments before the rapture? If so, you're a sorry excuse for a Christian.

The end is nigh! Yes! The rapture could happen tomorrow. So ask yourself how you lived TODAY. Were you a good Christian? Did you forgive? Did you avoid sinning?

If you are truly saved, then there's no reason to worry about the date. Only sinners worry about the date of the rapture.

No ONE is worried about the DATE. We are discussing whether it is near. And NOT because we are bad christians but because we are human and it is natural to wonder!!

[sndbay]

You see here that the first resurrection is of the dead in Christ (saved people) and the unsaved are not raised until some time after the Millennium when they will be judged according to their WORKS.
NOTE: Saved people are NOT judged according to their WORKS but according to their FAITH in Jesus Christ. There will bo no saved people in the last resurrection.

I think you have a lot of your facts right, but your sequence of events is incorrect.

I show you this again.

Jude 1:14
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(KJV)

You have not dealt with this other than to say the saints are angels, which idea I challenge does not square with other scriptures. I say they are redeemed people from all the history of planet Earth who died in faith. The fact that they come with the Lord proves they met Him previous to His return. This makes the rapture have to be either before the great tribulation or during it. I believe scripture shows it to be before.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(KJV)

Enoch is praised in scripture by God for telling truth, and it is that truth you are refer in the scripture above. Enoch is from Cain's family line (Cain noted as the first murder from the beginning/son of the devil John 8:44) This truth he told was well approved by God because it came from Enoch knowing the heritage of his father ... Cain ... satan. (The church of Smyrna is also shown in praise of God for the same that Enoch proclaimed in truth)

Let's take the inserted chapter 12 because it descriptively talks of time frame for good reason.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

First let us acknowledge the zodiac told of as signs in the beginning Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

The woman is (mother Israel / children of God), clothed with the sun (a sign = refer: Revelation 1:16 And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and His countenance was as the sun shineth in His strength.

So we have Christ and His countenance strength to cover/protect the believer or the children of God/mother Israel.

Continue with and the moon under her feet, (a sign = Psa 72:7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.)

and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. (a sign = 12 stars and crown are the angels and heaven's gates the royal crown refer: (Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: )( Psa 91: 11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.)

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This is Mother Israel/children, the path taken and the birth of new life out of tribulations and sorrow before the delivery as is the pain in natural child birth.So as the life we live here on earth until we are unto God in eternity. (Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.)

Revelation 12 :3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Watch when satan is cast down upon the earth to stand among the sea of people, the great tribulation begins, the seven heads are the sign of universality of earthy power and falsely shown with the same seven heads, horns and crowns as Christ. Refer: Revelation 13:1 And I (John) stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The third part of the stars are the fallen angels drawn by satan from heaven to earth, and stood before the children of God to devour or deceive all that is possible before they could be born to be given life everlasting.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and Her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.

Mother Israel brought forth the Key of David/Christ Jesus that opens the gates of heaven to the children of God .. Christ Jeasus was with God and the Throne .. Signs to WATCH are the Sun, the Moon and the Stars shall fall from heaven. Christ Jesus comes.. "The Lord's Day" refer: (Matthew 24:29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken)

A SIGN: of no sun, moon, and stars, yet Christ comes fast and bright as a flash of lighting . (Matthew 24:27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

( Matthew 24:30-31) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here underlined are those angels that come with Christ to gather the Elect! It will continue by saying they will feed her, meaning that the Elect with the angels will feed the Word of God to the children.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Christ gathers God's children as they fled to the wilderness during the seize of satan to lock him up for a thousand years, a point of time known as the millinium teaching( the feeding of the Word) all until.... Satan will be release and cast down from where he is held that thousand year for a short time after (2o3 days)
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

This is why those that are gather and taken to a safe place will not take part in satan seize.. And the Elect that were gather will indeed help as the priests of God and Christ. The feeding of the millinium period for a thousand years.
Revealtion 20:8-10 (the End of Satan)

Judgement is for all that remain after the teaching and after the final release of satan has come to an end. The book is open and all are given white line for the wedding garment that will be attending, and those without garments will be put outside.. I told of this previously on another thread.
Praise to the overcomers, they will sing the sound of Moses and there will be singing song of the Lamb

[RustyFairmount]

no ONE is worried about the DATE. We are discussing whether it is near. And NOT because we are bad christians but because we are human and it is natural to wonder!!!!

The discussion of whether it is near is irrelevant. "Near" in the eyes of God could be 200+ years, tomorrow, or in 5 minutes. It's a topic that we aren't even qualified to discuss.

The only relevant question is: Am I ready NOW?

[classyT]

Rusty,

The Lord Jesus discussed it plenty because he wanted us to know.. he gave some signs of the times... he did this because he said we can KNOW that it is near... even at the DOOR.

He gave a parable of the fig tree... (fig tree is Israel) he said consider it.. when it blooms you know that summer is near. Then he goes on to say that the generation that see the leaves on the fig tree would see the second coming.

Hmmm? Since 70 A.D. there was no Israel and then on May 14, 1948 she is on the map. He went on to say that the generation that witness the fig tree would see the second coming. You err in not understanding the signs.

It is important to be ready NOW.. but there is nothing and I mean nothing unbilical abouting discerning the signs of the times... Jesus talked about it himself.

[arcura]

Sorry guys and gals,
I do not believe in the rapture as it is being peddled in the last days books.
So we'll just have to wait and see IF the dead believers in Christ who raise fist will be taken up into the clouds
OR if it is those living at the time of the Secret coming before the real one time only one.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Galveston1]

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(KJV)

Enoch is praised in scripture by God for telling truth, and it is that truth you are refer in the scripture above. Enoch is from Cain's family line (Cain noted as the first murder from the beginning/son of the devil John 8:44) This truth he told was well approved by God because it came from Enoch knowing the heritage of his father ... Cain ... satan. (The church of Smyrna is also shown in praise of God for the same that Enoch proclaimed in truth)

[I do believe you are confused here. This Enoch is the prophet, the son of Jared, not Cain.

Gen 5:18-29
18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
(KJV)]


Let's take the inserted chapter 12 because it descriptively talks of time frame for good reason.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

First let us acknowledge the zodiac told of as signs in the beginning Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

The woman is (mother Israel / children of God), clothed with the sun (a sign = refer: Revelation 1:16 And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and His countenance was as the sun shineth in His strength.

So we have Christ and His countenance strength to cover/protect the believer or the children of God/mother Israel.

Continue with and the moon under her feet, (a sign = Psa 72:7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.)

and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. (a sign = 12 stars and crown are the angels and heaven's gates the royal crown refer: (Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: )( Psa 91: 11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.)

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This is Mother Israel/children, the path taken and the birth of new life out of tribulations and sorrow before the delivery as is the pain in natural child birth.So as the life we live here on earth until we are unto God in eternity. (Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.)

Revelation 12 :3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Watch when satan is cast down upon the earth to stand among the sea of people, the great tribulation begins, the seven heads are the sign of universality of earthy power and falsely shown with the same seven heads, horns and crowns as Christ. Refer: Revelation 13:1 And I (John) stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The third part of the stars are the fallen angels drawn by satan from heaven to earth, and stood before the children of God to devour or deceive all that is possible before they could be born to be given life everlasting.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and Her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.

Mother Israel brought forth the Key of David/Christ Jesus that opens the gates of heaven to the children of God .. Christ Jeasus was with God and the Throne .. Signs to WATCH are the Sun, the Moon and the Stars shall fall from heaven. Christ Jesus comes.. "The Lord's Day" refer: (Matthew 24:29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken)

[The woman's son is not Jesus. He is symbolic of the 144,000 young Jews who are specially alled out. Here's proof that it is not Jesus.]

[Rev 1:19
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
(KJV)]

[Rev 4:1
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
(KJV)]

[Clearly, everything after Rev. 4:1 is future in John's day. Jesus has already been resurrected and has ascended back to the Father.]

A SIGN: of no sun, moon, and stars, yet Christ comes fast and bright as a flash of lighting . (Matthew 24:27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

( Matthew 24:30-31) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here underlined are those angels that come with Christ to gather the Elect! It will continue by saying they will feed her, meaning that the Elect with the angels will feed the Word of God to the children.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Christ gathers God's children as they fled to the wilderness during the seize of satan to lock him up for a thousand years, a point of time known as the millinium teaching( the feeding of the Word) all until.... Satan will be release and cast down from where he is held that thousand year for a short time after (2o3 days)
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

This is why those that are gather and taken to a safe place will not take part in satan seize.. And the Elect that were gather will indeed help as the priests of God and Christ. The feeding of the millinium period for a thousand years.
Revealtion 20:8-10 (the End of Satan)

Judgement is for all that remain after the teaching and after the final release of satan has come to an end. The book is open and all are given white line for the wedding garment that will be attending, and those without garments will be put outside.. I told of this previously on another thread.
Praise to the overcomers, they will sing the sound of Moses and there will be singing song of the Lamb

[I believe you are confused. Sorry.
Satan will make war with the Woman and the remnant of her children. All Jewish. This is durning the Great Tribulation.]

Edit: This didn't work like I thought it would. You will have to pick out my responses from SND's comments. Maybe I can bracket them.

[Galveston1]

Sorry guys and gals,
I do not believe in the rapture as it is being peddled in the last days books.
So we'll just have to wait and see IF the dead believers in Christ who raise fist will be taken up into the clouds
OR if it is those living at the time of the Secret coming before the real one time only one.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

Think about it Fred.