[paraclete]

Better offer, well maybe but it came with manicles, I like to live in a country where we can trade with who we like and so do the Ukrainians. More and More Tom you sound like Pravada

[tomder55]

Pravda ,the NY Slimes .....what's the difference ? You think the western press is going out of it's way to report this objectively ? Even in the 1950s there was debate about the logic of plunging into the cold war . There certainly was more debate about our war against jihadistan .
However there are some objective journalists still in the west .
Fresh evidence of how the West lured Ukraine into its orbit - Telegraph

Better offer, well maybe but it came with manicles,

And the EU and IMF versions don't ?
Russia Gives Ukraine Bailout Package of at Least $20 Billion - WSJ
Meanwhile the IMF offered Ukraine a bailout with austerity measures that would make them the next Greece. Who do you think gave them the better deal?

[talaniman]

What's Putin Up to Now? Four Possible Explanations - Businessweek

Despite his more moderate rhetoric, Putin's goal remains to foster instability in Ukraine and undermine the government in Kiev, Masha Lipman, an analyst at the Carnegie Moscow Center, tells Bloomberg News. “Russia wants to avoid any possibility that Ukraine will move toward normalcy and the Western orbit,” she says.

By hook, crook, or big stick! Then we have,

Putin's Economic Model Showing Strain as Russia Is Cut Off From Global Finance - Businessweek

Putin's Popularity Up, Russian Economic Prospects Down - Businessweek

You think the Russian people get the real news? Do we? It's a big game of chess and the world is the board.

[tomder55]

Lipman exposes her own biasis with this comment “Russia wants to avoid any possibility that Ukraine will move toward normalcy and the Western orbit.” Is EU expansion the normal ;and why does the dysfunctional EU want to expand east ? What product does Ukraine make or provide Europe ?

[paraclete]

What product does Ukraine make or provide Europe ?

Economy of Ukraine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can draw the same conclusions as I can Tom Ukraine is strategically important to Russia and other CSA countries, and so has the ability to provide EU with minerals and it's enegy is largely untapped. It is not the poor relation as some former soviet countries were, but has suffered decline since the GFC and no doubt was looking for a boost

[tomder55]

so it makes perfect sense for Kiev to attack and destroy their own industrial base.

[paraclete]

It makes the same sense to remove the seperatists as it did to open fire on the crowds in Ferguson. Some people just don't respond well to being told no, and others don't respond well to being told there are better opportunities over here. I can understand the Ukraine didn't want to remain a Moscow satellite, just as I understand my own nation doesn't want to be under the US shadow, no matter what they do to the contrary. Putin is old school communist and old school dictator, my way or the highway stuff. No matter what you think about your emperor he doesn't have the will to stop him. We must stop thinking about the Russians as some sort of backwoods place, they were living in palaces and conquering Europe when you were still living in log cabins. The Ukraine was, until recent history, an integral part of "Russia" and there is a lot at stake for Russia, not the least of which is control of their pipelines. Having said that, the Russian incursion is unacceptable

[tomder55]

It makes the same sense to remove the seperatists as it did to open fire on the crowds in Ferguson

is that what you think happened there ? What distorted press gave you that info ? A cop was forced to resign for pointing his rifle at the crowd . The cops used tear gas and were attacked with Molotov cocktails .

We must stop thinking about the Russians as some sort of backwoods place, they were living in palaces and conquering Europe when you were still living in log cabins. The Ukraine was, until recent history, an integral part of "Russia" and there is a lot at stake for Russia, not the least of which is control of their pipelines.

indeed we must .We must also stop thinking of Russia as a conquered nation which surrendered it's national identity when the Berlin wall fell.

Having said that, the Russian incursion is unacceptable

and so is Kiev's heavy handed response in eastern Ukraine .
Ukraine rebel-held city Donetsk left in ruins after shelling

[paraclete]

You think they were heavy handed, I saw video of a fire fight, I doubt there has been a fire fight like that since WWII, certainly not in the UKraine. They haven't been fighting seperatists they have been fighting Russians, Russian troops on special leave with heavy weapons. I saw another vide of a russian train, with rocket launchers and heavy tanks. I think what happened is the Ukrainian army walked into a trap. There are stories of Russian tanks destroying villages, who are they fighting. You side with the Russians. It will serve you well when they take New York. I would say it is the Russians who destroyed Donetsk just by being there, same tactics they used at Stalingrad, draw the enemy in and encircle them then hit them with tanks

[tomder55]

The west and Russia should've concentrated on things they have in common ..like the threat from jihadistan and China .Instead the west saw a weakened Russia ;and took the opportunity to expand NATO ,(an alliance that was looking for a purpose in the post-cold war world ), to Russia's borders. Russia gained back a degree of it's strength ,due to western foolish energy and monetary polices ,and decided to draw a 'red line ' at Georgia and Ukraine . The proposition that NATO was a defensive alliance with it's actions in the Balkans ,Libya ,and it's eastward expansion is a dubious one .
It did not have to be this way .The US has reacted very similarly when Soviet expansion threatened our borders. What did you think Putin would do ? allow Sevastopol to become a NATO base ?
I don't apologize for his actions ;but I do understand his motivations .It has nothing to do with expanding Russian territory ,or rebuilding the old Soviet Union.
What should be done ? I support federalism as the most logical governing model for Ukraine .

[talaniman]

Nato and the EU have been working with the Ukraine for years until the pro Russian puppet tried to derail what they had done.

The EU as a good neighbour | Socialists & Democrats

European Neighbourhood Policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

U.S. Embraces EU Leadership on Ukraine It Recently Cursed - Businessweek

The EU accounts for about a third of Ukraine's external trade, with Russia the other large trade partner. The EU also is the major source of foreign direct investment in Ukraine -- although such investment has dropped by more than half in the three years of Yanukovych's term, to $7 billion from $15 billion in 2008 and 2009, according to the state statistical office.

Putin's Role

The EU and the U.S. share a broad geopolitical concern that Russian President Vladimir Putin is seeking to lock Ukraine in Russia's orbit even as many Ukrainians aspire to expand ties with the EU. The anti-government protests were sparked by Yanukovych's November decision to back out of a pending free-trade pact with the EU in favor of ties with Russia, which offered $15 billion of aid and cheaper natural gas.

[paraclete]

I think we are seeing the results of expansionist american policy, just like the communists they will not stop until everyone is in their sphere of influence, to borrow from the Borg, resistance is futile

[talaniman]

Actually the Russians have an agreement with the EU themselves,

Russia–European Union relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Russio-European relations are the international relations between the supranationalEuropean Union (EU) and its largest bordering state, the Russian Federation, to the east. The relations of individual member states of the European Union and Russia vary, though a 1990s common foreign policy outline towards Russia was the first such EU foreign policy agreed. Furthermore, four European Union-Russia Common Spaces are agreed as a framework for establishing better relations.

But of course the more rhetorical form you use was to enhance the Borg reference right? If not co-operation by mutual AGREEMENT cannot be seen strictly as expansionism nor assimilation.

[tomder55]

the EU is a utopian failure .The futility is thinking that the diverse continent can be incorporated into a single entity . some choice the Ukrainians are given . statist socialism no matter which way they look.

[paraclete]

Well Tom they were looking to the EU so the choice was theirs and they were making it but not as a member but economic cooperation. On the american continent a number of diverse states formed a union and continually expaned it, why would you deny the europeans the same opportunity. What you have here is a waining power trying to cling on to empire

[tomder55]

the American model of states forming a union around a central government with limited defined powers was broken years ago by the utopian progressive movement . I fully expect that given time ,and knowing European tendencies ,that the EU will devolve into a dictatorial empire.

[paraclete]

Well of course the course of republics is to form empire, isn't this what you are accusing Owbama of. The reasons for this are obvious and you can see them in your own government. Representative government reaches the stage where progress cannot be made and executive decisions lead to bypassing an intractiable house of representatives however called, Charles tried it in England and almost succeeded but was replaced by an even more formidable potentate. Putin has made the Duma a rubber stamp

[talaniman]

[paraclete]

Plausiable deniability