[tomder55]

I'm more interested to see what Obama will do. When the people took to the streets of Cairo to protest the dictatorship of Mubarak ,the President called for his ouster and supported the protesters .
Well now we have Morsi's power grab and the people again took to the streets . Will the President stand with them ,or Pharaoh Morsi ? Will Evita again call for "an orderly, peaceful transition to real democracy, not faux democracy" ?

I suspect the President will support Morsi ;this man of the people ,this symbol of "new begining " that Obama referred to in his apology tour speech at Cairo. Hey... he just used his power of persuasion to get his proxies in Gaza to accept a hudna ! That's good for a Nobel Peace Prize . The fact that Iran will smuggle more long range missiles through the Sinai will be overlooked.

2nd terms are traditionally the time when Presidents try to forge a lasting legacy . The total takeover of the Magreb and Levant by extremist political Islam will be Obama's legacy .He lit the kindling early on... turning his back on real democratic movements ,and embracing the extremist elements in the ummah . He can dance on the grave of OBL all he wants to . For all the treat of AQ ,they never posed a threat to seize the seat of power of a major nation . Oh they could successfully and temporarily be the major power in a failed state ;but not in an established nation with a functional government . That is the change Obama has brought . Radical jihadists are now firmly in control of the most powerful Muslim states in the region.

[paraclete]

You expect a President to be a statesman playing on the world stage, but in fact few are up to the task. Obama needs a lasting legacy at home, not abroad. He has his 'victories" abroad, the withdrawal from Iraq, the withdrawal from Afghanistan, the death of OBL, the death of Gaddafi, this is surely enough for one man. If you expect him to invade the Megreb you might be disappointed

[tomder55]

His legacy will be the spark that ignited the takeover of the Magreb by extreme Islam. The withdrawal from Iraq is a blunder . Afghanistan is a surrender in the way it is being conducted . I already commented on the insignificance of the killing of OBL in the wake of what he has helped unleash . QDaffy was his 'lead from behind' deception and payback to our European allies for their support for AfPakia . The jury is still out on the Libya adventure but what it bought us is a hardline position from Moscow (who we lied to and deceived about our intentions ) that will now check every other initiative .But worse of all is that Libya introduced a new concept into our foreign policy... the so called 'responsibility to protect ' (R2P) that the Obots will use for all types of initiatives including (if Samantha Powers gets her wish) ,the military intervention by the US in support of the Palestinians AGAINST Isreal.

[excon]

Hello again,

It's like I said earlier.. You guys THINK Obama solved the Middle East problem because he made a speech in Cairo. When it turns out he didn't, the problem became his...

This is eerily similar to your faulty memory BEFORE Obama became president... George W. Bush sunk the economy, but you can't remember, so it's Obama's fault. The Middle East has been in flames for the last 75 years, but you can't remember, so it's Obama's fault...

Bwa, ha ha ha.

excon

[excon]

Hello again, tom

I can't remember if you were pissed that Obama DIDN'T support OUR dictator named Mubarak. I think you were. Where do you stand with "our" other dictators like the king's of Saudi Arabia and Jordan? They're going down too. Who's side are you on? The people or the dictator?

Will it be Obama's fault no matter WHO prevails? I think you think it WILL be.

excon

[tomder55]

I was ambivalent towards Mubarack . He was being nudged towards democratic reform before the Obama Presidency . But while he was a dictator ,he maintained the peace and stability between his nation and Israel that was forged after the Camp David Accords .

Radical political Islam isn't good for the people ;even if democratically elected ;any more than the democratically elected Nazi was good for Germany. So if the people of Saudi Arabia or Jordan choose the Brotherhood ,I will oppose them as well.

[talaniman]

I oppose any kind of religious fundamentalism as a way to govern. I also think Egypt is in a good position to help shape a peace in the middle east. The problem I think is that Israel has had no reason to negotiate in good faith as long as big brother had their back, but Egypt also needs our support to succeed as a nation, brotherhood or NOT!

I mean how hard is it to draw and agree on a map?

Why has Israel not done so?

Let not forget either to be fair, Gaza is not JUST Hamas, but everyone thinks it is becaue they have guns AND rockets.

[tomder55]

Why has Israel not done so?

You make it sound like the whole burden is on Israel. The charters of Hamas and the PLA call for the destruction of Israel as a nation. Do you expect them to negotiate away their existence ? Israel came to the table a number of times and even this time stopped way short of what they are capable of . They were winning militarily ;but gave that option away .What do they get in return ? The recognition of Hamas as the legitimate negotiating partner in Gaza... and a weakening of both the border crossings into Sinai and loosening of the blockade. Sounds like they lost diplomaticallly to me . That falls squarely on the shoulders of Evita and Obama.

[paraclete]

Don'y worry Ex the US has just created another friendly dictator they will end up fighting. Someone has to remember you can't be on both sides in this contest. It will come down to either the Palestinians or the Israeli's. There are no good islamists, they are opposed to everyone who is not Muslim and they have another beef here, land and a small piece of land they call sacred

[talaniman]

It's a cease fire, the latest of many before. No Army will win this one. What? Should they just quit and just start the shooting... keep shooting?

[paraclete]

You want my honest opinion, death is the only way this gets healed. The Palastinians are not going to give up their claims, they want to return to their homeland, just as the jews wanted to return to their homeland. What would you do if you were crowded into a thin strip of land with no way out. Eventually you will fight, lash out, because death is a release. Israel asked them not to go when Israel was formed but instead three wars have created the situation we have today. Large numbers of displaced people and this is a generational thing, generations of these people have known nothing but war or the threat of war. Nothing excuses their behaviour towards Israel, but Israel has to carry part of the blame for not normalising relations

[tomder55]

BS is all I say. The Israelis in the 1990s offered them almost all they demanded ,and Arafat walked away from the Camp David negotiations . Gaza is completely in their control . The phony right of return is not going to happen any more than the Jews who were expelled from their lands in Jordan and the surrounding territories will be allowed to return to their properties .
If you think 'right of return ' is a solution then you too are calling for the destruction of Israel.

[paraclete]

Please don't be idiotic Tom I didn't say their claims were valid, merely that they exist. I didn't suggest that Israel should allow them to return, they left by their own will even if war caused them to move, Whether Arafat gave up a real opportunity or not is history and we have moved a long way since then, even though the borders have changed little. You and I both know this isn't going to be resolved by the formation of some Palastinian state, all that is going to do is formalise borders. No solution imposed by the US or anyoneelse is going to work, the parties have to come to the conclusion for themselves that peace is a good idea and the palastinians have not yet reached that point. They are stupid enough to think they can win a military conflict just because Gaza exists. It exists because Israel has not chosen to wipe it off the map.

None of this precludes the Palestinians being treated humanely

[tomder55]

Morsi's power grab is almost complete . A new Islamist Constitution passed after walkouts by just about every opposition group . Perhaps the new Constitution will be submitted to the public for a referendum. More likely Morsi will proceed with his power grab leaving Egypt as the latest example of democracy Arab style... one man ,one vote ,one time.

[paraclete]

No one set a time limit on democracy Tom, only in the west have we decided that elections have to be held at various intervals, In truth we have learned that political agendas become stale after a time and renewal is needed. The Arabs have not learned this, after two hundred years of democracy they might come to know this, until then they will move from one emir to another

[tomder55]

This is democracy French revolution style. Shortly after the promise comes the reign of terror and then Napolianism.It doesn't end well.

[paraclete]

True but it is the model followed by most of the world. Your own revolution produced much talk but inevietably degenerated into civil war more bloody than many of the wars the world had seen before. It seems there must be some sort of purging before a different era can be ushured it and even then it might not take root. Europe fought two wars in recent history before the old order was swept away. The French revolution was still borne, it produced Napeleon, though they would never admit it.

You can't blame the arabs for not embracing the western model, after all look at what it has produced

[tomder55]

Europe fought two wars in recent history before the old order was swept away.

lol ;the new order in Europe is a German dominant victory... this time without firing a shot.

[paraclete]

lol ;the new order in Europe is a German dominant victory ...this time without firing a shot.

Yes Germany has risen, and who do we have to thank for that. The US made the mistake of reconstructing its two enemies Germany and Japan. What they hoped to gain I cannot imagine, both places should have been left a wasteland

[tomder55]

They tried that formula in 1918.