[Wondergirl]

Psalm 9:17
Romans 6:23
Psalm 37:9,10
Psalm 145:20
Zephaniah 1:17,18

Complete destruction, annihilation for the wicked.

That's not what Romans says.

[Moparbyfar]

Ah quite right Wgirl, I was thinking of 2 things at once when I posted that. It does say that "the wages sin pays is death" - not punishment in hell. That was my line of thought for that scripture. If one was to be punished forever in hell, they would be alive in some form which contradicts Romans 6:23.

[Wondergirl]

Ah quite right Wgirl, I was thinking of 2 things at once when I posted that. It does say that "the wages sin pays is death" - not punishment in hell. That was my line of thought for that scripture. If one was to be punished forever in hell, they would be alive in some form which contradicts Romans 6:23.

The other verses are from the O.T. We all know that the Jews believe the grave is the last stop. Only the first reference in Psalms says that. The other verses refer to other things, but not eternal annihilation.

[Moparbyfar]

2 Tim 3:16,17 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." That includes the OT which is not merely a story about the Jews but tells so much more - God's purpose for mankind and the earth, prophesies that would later be fulfilled even in the NT, ones yet to be fulfilled, God's personality, lessons for us to learn from. It will help right hearted ones to compare scriptures from the OT with the NT in order to see the whole picture.

[De Maria]

Is there such thing as hell?

Yes.

i was raised as a catholic

The Catholic Church teaches the existence of hell:
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1035

but i think maybe religions just use that to scare people to keep bringing them back to church.
unfortunately that's what priest feed of, the people!

Sounds as though you are either having or have had a crisis of faith.

i was also told that hell is just a state in your should that doesn't let you see God!

By whom and whom do you believe?

but what about the eternal fire?

The eternal fire is real.

[classyT]

It doesn't matter if the Catholic Church or ANY so called "church" preaches Hell or doesn't. The BIBLE teaches there is INDEED a hell.

As a born again Christian woman, my ONLY authority is the written word of God. IN that written word called the BIBLE... there is a heaven and there is a hell. GOD is not a man that he should lie.

[TUT317]

[QUOTE=classyT;2459065]It doesn't matter if the Catholic Church or ANY so called "church" preaches Hell or doesn't. The BIBLE teaches there is INDEED a hell.

Hi classyT,

Glad you could join in. What you say above doesn't seem to be in dispute with many of us. The problem seems to be.'Yes, there is a hell but where is it located?' If hell were a physical place then there is every chance in the future of marking it on some type of map.

If it is, 'a state of being' ( as suggested by a famous Pope) then it doesn't have a physical location. It doesn't make it less 'real'. It just means that it doesn't have a location.

Regards

Tut

[galveston]

Jesus gave a vivid description of Hell when He gave the account of the rich man who went there.

And,

Death is not extermination, it is separation.

[dwashbur]

2 Tim 3:16,17 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

No one is disputing that. But again, context is everything, and it's what you consistently ignore.

[bidingmytime]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 states "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten."

If the wicked suffered literally in hell then this scripture would have no meaning. Also compare Psalms 146:3,4 which tells us that in the day one perishes, his thoughts do perish. Literal torment requires feeling, something that according to these scriptures we don't have when we die (the dead are conscious of nothing at all).

The gift of God is eternal life. I think God wouldn't give someone eternal life if they aren't going to heaven.

[Wondergirl]

The gift of God is eternal life. I think God wouldn't give someone eternal life if they aren't going to heaven.

God offers everyone eternal life, but some refuse it.

[JoeT777]

God offers everyone eternal life, but some refuse it.

I thought that Lutherans believed in pre-destination? As I understand the logic, God pre-ordained from eternity those who went to heaven. To double up, I thought it included the belief whereby God also pre-ordained those who went to the “not-so-good-place”? So, how can you choose to accept or reject God’s offer of eternal life? This seems to contradict some of your previous statements.

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

I thought that Lutherans believed in pre-destination? As I understand the logic, God pre-ordained from eternity those who went to heaven. To double up, I thought it included the belief whereby God also pre-ordained those who went to the “not-so-good-place”? So, how can you choose to accept or reject God’s offer of eternal life? This seems to contradict some of your previous statements.

JoeT

It doesn't contradict any of my previous statements. (Please quote me if you find any.) Missouri-Synod Lutherans believe a person can reject God and salvation; they do not believe in predestination. I do not know what other Lutheran synods believe.

[dwashbur]

It doesn't contradict any of my previous statements. (Please quote me if you find any.) Missouri-Synod Lutherans believe a person can reject God and salvation; they do not believe in predestination. I do not know what other Lutheran synods believe.

Predestination is a lousy term. I prefer to say sovereignty; God is sovereign over his creation and nothing happens without at least his permission. Free-will is also a lousy term; I prefer to speak in terms of responsibility. Humans are responsible and answerable for their actions, including rejecting God and his way of reconciliation.

Somewhere off in the distance those two ideas reconcile. I don't pretend to understand it and don't even try. The reconciling of the two notions happens somewhere in the infinite mind of God, so if he explained it to me, I wouldn't be able to grasp it because I'm finite.

[galveston]

The only predestination that I can see in the Bible is this:
Every one who accepts Jesus as Savior and Lord is PREDESTINED to be conformed to His image. That is, at some point, every believer will become like Jesus in character.

[De Maria]

It doesn't matter if the Catholic Church

To you. It matters quite a bit to me.

or ANY so called "church" preaches Hell or doesn't.

This person says she is a former Catholic so I was informing her the Catholic teaching.

The BIBLE teaches there is INDEED a hell.

There is no denying that.

As a born again Christian woman, my ONLY authority is the written word of God.

Even though the written word of God gives you many authorities:
Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

So, in saying that you accept only the Bible and no other authority, you are admitting that you don't even obey the Bible.

IN that written word called the BIBLE... there is a heaven and there is a hell. GOD is not a man that he should lie.

That is correct. And the Catholic Church teaches the Bible.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Athos]

That is correct. And the Catholic Church teaches the Bible.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Not wise to parry with DeMaria. He knows the Bible as well as anyone on these pages - better, in my opinion.

But, for those who are honestly trying to get a better understanding of the Catholic faith, De Maria is the one to read.

[lobstertrap]

It is inconceivable to me that in 2010 people still believe the fairy tales of religion. It's 40 years now since a man was whacking a golf ball around on the moon and chasing it in a cart, and people still believe this religion tripe?

[Athos]

It is inconceivable to me that in 2010 people still believe the fairy tales of religion. It's 40 years now since a man was whacking a golf ball around on the moon and chasing it in a cart, and people still believe this religion tripe?

Forty years since the moon golfing, and 50,000 years since mankind began to wonder about himself and his place in the universe. Surely golfing on the moon is not your ultimate answer.

[JoeT777]

It is inconceivable to me that in 2010 people still believe the fairy tales of religion. It's 40 years now since a man was whacking a golf ball around on the moon and chasing it in a cart, and people still believe this religion tripe?

I believe, I wouldn't call my faith 'fairy tales' and many were martyred for more than tripe in a moon crater.

JoeT