[arcura]

450donn,
No, I did not say that or infer that others are heathens.
I am upset that you says so or think so.
All who are friends of Jesus are friends of mine.
That is the way I think and feel.
Christians in other denominations are brothers and sisters to me if they truly love anf follow Jesus as best they can and know how.
Millions of Christians are brought up outside the Catholic Church and really know no other than the one they were brought up in. They know or understand no other.
I am not a person who bashes or viciously puts down other denominations or the members thereof, as some folks do do.
That is a waste of time and love.
Some of my best friends and loved ones are members of other denominations and I do not think less of them for that or of or for you.
I hope you have learned to understand the Catholic Church better as has been presented here for we Catholics here are sincere.
I think that it is good that we understand each other. That way we can better get along well.
Having been a member and leader in a Protestant denomination fro many years helps me understand others point of view.
Frankly I still love to denomination I left for It brought me to Jesus and treated me well.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[inhisservice]

JoeT777

Ground of Truth = Foundation = Peter = Church = Catholic

As I have already told you and as scripture quite plainly states foundation is NOT Peter but Jesus Christ.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

When Jesus said that He would build His church on a rock He was not just randomly using a metaphor. He was using a metaphor which was quite familiar to everyone who has heard the scripture being read in the synagogues. It was a common metaphor and everyone knew what it meant.
Here a few of the numerous verses of the OT that speaks of the Rock.

2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?
Psa 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
Psa 28:1 A Psalm of David. Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock;
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
Psa 92:15 To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.


Paul made it clear to us who the rock was.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The scripture is clear that the rock is Jesus Christ. It is also clear that Jesus said to Peter "You are a small piece of a larger rock". You once said Jesus spoke Aramaic. So He did. But when He spoke Peter He just used a Greek word.

Let me also bring this verse to your mind.

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

The "modus operandi" of Jesus is not such that an authority exists as a leader among men. No one is supposed to exercise authority. He alone is our authority. This is the same reason why God did not give Israel a king. "The greatest among you must be the servant." The RC goes exactly opposite to this doctrine.

Therefore the only way you can establish that Peter was made the leader of the Church is either by rejecting the scripture or by twisting it.

[450donn]

But Fred, this is not the first time you and/or JoeT777 have made these sorts of claims or accusations. What am I suppose to think when you keep repeating this mantra and Joe follows along and keeps repeating this same party line?

[arcura]

inhisservice,
Sorry, that is not correct.
If you read the passages correctly Jesus was talking directly to and about Peter AND Jesus gave him the power to hold or lose things here which would be made so in heaven
Note closely that Jesus gave Peter the keys to heaven which made Peter His prime minister on this planet.
Also...
Thus both Jesus and Peter are referred to Rock
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

NOW you are trying to say Peter is the same as Jesus? How ridiculous!
MY God have you totally gone off the deep end.
Now I really know the truth Fred!

[arcura]

450donn,
No I am Not!!
I said that they both have been referred to as a rock.
That IS recorded in Scripture or I would not have mentioned it.
Matth 7:24 First it was Peter as a rock, later in Corinthians it was Jesus. It was Paul who did so as a spiritual Rock. By then Jesus had died and gone to heaven.
1 Corinthians 10:4  And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)
There are many things in the bible referred to as a rock.
Check it out if you don't believe me.
I stick with Holy Scripture for my truths.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The scripture is clear that the rock is Jesus Christ. It is also clear that Jesus said to Peter "You are a small piece of a larger rock". You once said Jesus spoke Aramaic. So He did. But when He spoke Peter He just used a Greek word.

AS I speak, I can change metaphors from time to time; it’s quite common, sometimes all within the same sentence. There no difference between Peter the Foundation and Christ the foundation.

Yes Christ is the Rock. He is also the founder; but more important to Paul a more important metaphoric image of spiritual rock. Obviously missed was my post concerning Peter the Boulder, Rock, stone, or pebble. But, here the metaphors are too important to miss.

“For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud: and all passed through the sea. And all in Moses were baptized, in the cloud and in the sea: And did all eat the same spiritual food: And all drank the same spiritual drink: (And they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.)”

The Jews walked out of Egypt under the smoke of the pillar of fire, through the parted sea. They ate manna from heaven that saved the body but, “your fathers ate manna in the desert, and are dead.” (John 6:49). They drank from a rock from which water flowed. You may remember the miracle in the desert, Moses was commanded to “strike the rock, and water shall come out of it that the people may drink.” (Exodus 17:6). Paul brings this to vividly to mind, but then he adds, “And they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them” linking it to “and the Rock was Christ.” The spiritual drink that gushed out was the blood of Christ, and the manna the body of Christ; a metaphoric connection the Real Presence of Christ, i.e. the Eucharist. The reference to water and Moses is a direct allegorical connection to baptism. Paul makes no bones of it; he places meat on the Table; a holy Altar where life sustaining flesh is served, the Lamb of God.

To Paul’s Jewish audience, this message is the same vivid one Christ gave the Pharisees on Passover. The manna their father ate didn’t bring eternal life, but there was “new bread which comes from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.“ A bread that sustains life forever. (Cf. John 6:47 seqq.)


JoeT

[arcura]

inhisservice,
Joe did good job explaining that for you.
But keep in mind the Paul was writing that after Jesus had died and gone to heaven.
And clearly he was speaking to the Jews who knew of the rock from which water came in Moses' time.
Jesus was the spiritual water which now flood to them that followed Jesus.
BUT Peter is the Rock on which the Church was built.
In its way it is also a spiritual rock for The Church id the abode of the Holy Spirit which guides and inspires it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[TUT317]

Catholic[/B]

JoeT

The disagreement seems to be over the above, i.e. transitive sequence of events.What we you are examining is whether something is equal to something else, e.g.. Ground of truth=Peter, Foundation=Church or any other possible combination.

Such a sequence leads to an infinite regress because:

(1) There are justified beliefs.

(2) Every justified belief is justified by inferring it from some justified belief or beliefs.

(3) No justified belief justifies itself.

(4) Belief x justifies a belief in y and y justified a belief in z and so on.

In order to make the sequence finite we can say that Z is the conclusion. As in the above case where Catholic is the conclusion. This however results in the sequence being circular.This is because one of the justifications could not be known to be true unless the conclusion was assumed to be true.

Tut

[arcura]

TUT317,
I go by what the bible clearly says about Jesus appointing Peter to be the first Leader of The Church.
To me the Holy Bible is the truth of God's Word and it says that The Church is the foundation and pillar of the truth on earth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[TUT317]

TUT317,
I go by what the bible clearly says about Jesus appointing Peter to be the first Leader of The Church.
To me the Holy Bible is the truth of God's Word and it says that The Church is the foundation and pillar of the truth on earth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hello Fred,

I have absolutely no problem with that.

I see the problem being in the way the relationships have been expressed in a transitive format.

Regards

Tut

[arcura]

TUT317,
I do not understand what you mean by the word transitive.
Please help me understand it.
I have never used that word.
Fred

[TUT317]

TUT317,
I do not understand what you mean by the word transitive.
Please help me understand it.
I have never used that word.
Fred

Hi Fred,

It is a bit like this:

Helen is the mother of Alice, Alice is the mother of Jill, Jill is the mother of Jan and so on.

For example, Helen and Jan are related, but we cannot say that Helen=Jan. A lot depends on the way we use is/equals.

I hope this helps.

Regards

Tut

[arcura]

TUT317,
Thanks.
That works for me.
Now how does it apply to how we have been dealing with this topic?
Fred

[TUT317]

Hi again Fred,

For a relation to be equally transitive it must be of the following type:

a=b and b=c, then a=c

This works well in mathematics but becomes problematic when dealing with factual examples in language.

If you consider the example I gave you earlier, Helen can never equal Jan. Even though they are related they are two distinct entities. Strictly speaking the example is intransitive.

Intransitive relationships are of the type, ab and
because always implies NOT ac.

(This is different again to non-transitive relationships. It will not be necessary to go into this).

Consider the example mentioned a few times in the discussion.

Ground of truth=Foundation=Peter=Church=Catholic

Basically what I am claiming is that the above is of the intransitive type.
In other words , it is of the type, not equal.

Regards

Tut

[arcura]

TUT317,
Ah, now I see what you are getting at.
But your "Ground of truth=Foundation=Peter=Church=Catholic" should be with the Ground of truth last as well as first.
Why, because Jesus is the spiritual Ground of truth who founded the Church and as the bible says it also is the pillar and ground of truth.
But also what we have here is a progress of accomplishment
Jesus, Truth, Foundation, Peter, Church, Catholic, Ground of truth.
What's missing is the ties... or word ties... as follows...
Jesus is Truth, He Foundation, with Peter as leader, The Church which is Catholic, which is Ground of truth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

TUT317,
Ah, now I see what you are getting at.
But your "Ground of truth=Foundation=Peter=Church=Catholic" should be with the Ground of truth last as well as first.
Why, because Jesus is the spiritual Ground of truth who founded the Church and as the bible says it also is the pillar and ground of truth.
But also what we have here is a progress of accomplishment
Jesus, Truth, Foundation, Peter, Church, Catholic, Ground of truth.
What's missing is the ties...or word ties...as follows...
Jesus is Truth, He Foundation, with Peter as leader, The Church which is Catholic, which is Ground of truth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred:

Excellent response! Not to mention perfect logic! Tut needs to get up a lot earlier to get one on you.

Ground of truth=Foundation=Peter=Church=Catholic

The perfect circle of life

Ground of truth=Foundation=Peter=Church=Catholic=Ground of truth


JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT,
Thanks much.
Pax Christi,
Fred

[TUT317]

He Fred,

Well done Fred. You people might be able to get back to your discussion without me interfering.

Tut

[arcura]

Thanks TUT,
Have a great gentle day.
Fred