[ETWolverine]

Liar, liar, pants on fire! That is NOT what WG said!

Really?

Obama had never told us anything about a stimulus package that was being put together?

Looks like you did.

Or did AMHD "misplay what you said"?

Elliot

[tomder55]

This just from this op

Originally Posted by inthebox
Obamacare, whatever that may be, is unpopular

Whatcha talkin' 'bout, Willis? A bill hasn't even been written yet, much less passed and signed. There is nothing in existence yet to be unpopular.

Originally Posted by 450donn
HUH!!!
The anointed one demanded that this "non" bill be passed by congress before the recess. So what is it that Nobama was demanding be passed. Another piece of garbage to waste another trillion dollars on?

Read my lips. There is no final bill yet. Right now it's a proposal. President Obama had hoped the Congress would get it all together before the recess, but that didn't happen. Framing a final bill is what all the discussion is about.

I pointed out originally in #9 response that the President hadn't advanced his own plan and just like the bucket list stimulation bill ;he will rely on Congress to do the work . (to refresh your memory... Excon responded something to the effect that my balls were dragging on the floor) .

If they send him a pork sandwich he will be happy to sign it . He has no ideas of his own.
If I am wrong then please correct me by showing me the outline for his plan that he submitted to Congress.

[speechlesstx]

Speaking of Obama letting Congress do the work, Nat Hentoff - a guy who is not exactly a right-winger mind you - points out the ominous part of Obamacare is not the legislation but the regulations hammered out by the bureaucrats once the legislation is passed.

I was alerted to Lanes' crucial cautionary advice — for those of use who may be influenced to attend the Obamacare twilight consultations — by Wesley J. Smith, a continually invaluable reporter and analyst of, as he calls his most recent book, the "Culture of Death: The Assault on Medical Ethics in America" (Encounter Books).

As more Americans became increasingly troubled by this and other fearful elements of Dr. Obama's cost-efficient health care regimen, Smith adds this vital advice, no matter what legislation Obama finally signs into law:


"Remember that legislation itself is only half the problem with Obamacare. Whatever bill passes, hundreds of bureaucrats in the federal agencies will have years to promulgate scores of regulations to govern the details of the law.


"This is where the real mischief could be done because most regulatory actions are effectuated beneath the public radar. It is thus essential, as just one example, that any end-of-life counseling provision in the final bill be specified to be purely voluntary … and that the counseling be required by law to be neutral as to outcome. Otherwise, even if the legislation doesn't push in a specific direction — for instance, THE GOVERNMENT REFUSING TREATMENT — the regulations could."

Who'll let us know what's really being decided about our lives — and what is set into law? To begin with, Charles Lane, Wesley Smith and others whom I'll cite and add to as this chilling climax of the Obama presidency comes closer.

And that is why it's so scary to even consider passing this behemoth of a bill. It is intentionally vague even at over a thousand pages, the details will be worked out later while your back is turned.

[excon]

Hello:

It could be written in half a page... Or less. If one wanted single payer, it could be called: Medicare for all. If one wanted a public option, it could be called: buying into Medicare. It should be written like that, and it should be sold like that. It's simple and everybody would understand it. If they DID that, it would pass with flying colors...

Then we wouldn't have to reform the insurance companies. Let them continue to do what they've always done.

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello:

It could be written in half a page... Or less. If one wanted single payer, it could be called: Medicare for all. If one wanted a public option, it could be called: buying into Medicare. It should be written like that, and it should be sold like that. It's simple and everybody would understand it. If they DID that, it would pass with flying colors...

Then we wouldn't have to reform the insurance companies. Let them continue to do what they've always done.

excon

I happen to agree with you that if the bill were presented in that fashion it would be easier to sell. Not to mention being more transparent to the public. I still wouldn't agree with the idea, but I agree that it would be easier for the public to buy in to the idea.

So why do you think that the bill ISN'T being presented that way? Why are the Dems going out of their way to first muddy the waters and then get us to drink? Why did they write a bill that was so long that THEY didn't even bother reading it, and then try to ram it through without giving anyone else time to read it? And why did they make it so complicated when it could have been made really easy and simple to understand? And why did they not even CONSIDER any of the other ways that health care in America could be reformed to cover the uninsured, lower medical costs across the board and increase access to all?

Elliot

[excon]

Why are the Dems going out of their way to first muddy the waters

Hello again, El:

Why?? Because they're Democrats.

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, El:

Why??? Because they're Democrats.

excon

For once we are in agreement.

Though I think that the reason may be more sinister than that. I believe that they attempted to hide a bunch of stuff into this bill that they really didn't want us to know about. They buried it in the bill and tried to get it passed quickly so that we wouldn't have time to find it. Same as they did with the pork in the stimulus bill and the pork in the omnibus bill and the hidden provisions of the Cap & Trade bill.

If for no other reason than that, this bill should be killed.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

Darn that broken U.S. health care system, U.S. life expectancy at all-time high.

-- Record high life expectancy was recorded for both males and females (75.3 years and 80.4 years, respectively). While the gap between male and female life expectancy has narrowed since the peak gap of 7.8 years in 1979, the 5.1 year difference in 2007 is the same as in 2006.

-- For the first time, life expectancy for black males reached 70 years.

-- The U.S. mortality rate fell for the eighth straight year to an all-time low of 760.3 deaths per 100,000 population in 2007 -- 2.1 percent lower than the 2006 rate of 776.5. The 2007 mortality rate is half of what it was 60 years ago (1532 per 100,000 in 1947.)

-- The preliminary number of deaths in the United States in 2007 was 2,423,995, a 2,269 decrease from the 2006 total.

-- Heart disease and cancer, the two leading causes of death, accounted for nearly half (48.5 percent) of all deaths in 2007.

-- Between 2006 and 2007, mortality rates declined significantly for eight of the 15 leading causes of death. Declines were observed for influenza and pneumonia (8.4 percent), homicide (6.5 percent), accidents (5 percent), heart disease (4.7 percent), stroke (4.6 percent), diabetes (3.9 percent), hypertension (2.7 percent), and cancer (1.8 percent).

-- The death rate for the fourth leading cause of death, chronic lower respiratory diseases, increased by 1.7 percent. Preliminary death rates also increased for Parkinson’s disease, chronic liver disease and cirrhosis, and Alzheimer’s, but these gains are not statistically significant.

-- There were an estimated 11,061 deaths from HIV/AIDS in 2007, and mortality rates from the disease declined 10 percent from 2006, the biggest one-year decline since 1998. HIV remains the sixth leading cause of death among 25-44 year-olds.

-- The preliminary infant mortality rate for 2007 was 6.77 infant deaths per 1,000 live births, a 1.2 percent increase from the 2006 rate of 6.69, though not considered statistically significant. Birth defects were the leading cause of infant death in 2007, followed by disorders related to preterm birth and low birthweight. Sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) was the third leading cause of infant death in the United States.

[NeedKarma]

Still below other nations but you're catching up!
Life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[excon]

Darn that broken U.S. health care system, U.S. life expectancy at all-time high

Hello again, Steve:

Yeah, we're doing good... But, it looks like the other Western nations, the ones that take care of ALL their people, are ahead of us. Or is the map not telling the real story?

excon

[speechlesstx]

Don't worry, NK. Eat a few more Big Macs and you'll be right there with us.

[NeedKarma]

Don't worry, NK. Eat a few more Big Macs and you'll be right there with us.

There you have it, nailed him with facts and he comes back with personal attacks.

Keep trying to spin stuff, we'll be here to show the truth.

[speechlesstx]

Ex, I ask again, who is NOT getting health care in this country? Whether we've caught up to those other countries is irrelevant to the point. The report belies the narrative that our health care system is broken or failing. It needs changes, we've all acknowledged that, but let's have an HONEST discussion and an HONEST attempt to fix what's wrong instead of ramming a massive, intentionally vague, unsustainable, complete overhaul of the system.

[speechlesstx]

There you have it, nailed him with facts and he comes back with personal attacks.

Keep trying to spin stuff, we'll be here to show the truth.

Personal attacks? You have absolutely no sense of humor do you?

[excon]

ex, I ask again, who is NOT getting health care in this country?

Hello again, Steve:

SOMEBODY isn't getting health care, or are you saying that health insurance companies pay for EVERYTHING? Nahh, you wouldn't say that... You wouldn't be saying, that the average working stiff who is turned down by his insurance company, can afford to PAY for the services himself, would you?? Nahh, you wouldn't be saying that... You wouldn't be saying, that an average working stiff who's been turned down for medical services by his insurer can get those services at his local emergency room?? Nahhhh, you wouldn't be saying that... You wouldn't be saying that this person is going to get charity to pay for these medical services, would you? Nahhh, you wouldn't be saying that.

You wouldn't be saying that a working poor person, with NO insurance, could get a check up at his emergency room, would you?? Nahhh, you wouldn't...

By the way, where WOULD a working poor person with NO insurance get a check up?? Where would that be?? Where?? You say everybody is getting health care, but it's just not true - not true at all.

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, Steve:

SOMEBODY isn't getting health care, or are you saying that health insurance companies pay for EVERYTHING? Nahh, you wouldn't say that... You wouldn't be saying, that the average working stiff who is turned down by his insurance company, can afford to PAY for the services himself, would you?? Nahh, you wouldn't be saying that... You wouldn't be saying, that an average working stiff who's been turned down for medical services by his insurer can get those services at his local emergency room?? Nahhhh, you wouldn't be saying that... You wouldn't be saying that this person is going to get charity to pay for these medical services, would you? Nahhh, you wouldn't be saying that.

Excon, you have again made the classic mistake of confusing health care with health insurance.

There are plenty of people in this country without health insurance.

There are NONE without health care.

You wouldn't be saying that a working poor person, with NO insurance, could get a check up at his emergency room, would you?? Nahhh, you wouldn't...

They do all the time. Are you saying they don't?

By the way, where WOULD a working poor person with NO insurance get a check up?? Where would that be?? Where?? You say everybody is getting health care, but it's just not true - not true at all.

Excon

They go to ERs for their day-to-day care. Got the sniffles, go to your local ER to get it checked out. Happens all the time. My brother, the doctor, deals with such people every day.

They also go to free clinics. You've heard of those, right?

Are you saying they don't? If you are, you are either lying or lacking in the facts.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

You wouldn't be saying that a working poor person, with NO insurance, could get a check up at his emergency room, would you??? Nahhh, you wouldn't...

By the way, where WOULD a working poor person with NO insurance get a check up????? Where would that be???? Where??? You say everybody is getting health care, but it's just not true - not true at all.

You know, in my area Planned Parenthood has made one its primary arguments for its existence is to provide health care, mostly for women but not exclusively, including regular checkups. That might be a place to start.

Also in my area (which I've mentioned many times now), our public hospital furnishes regular outpatient care for those who can't afford it both at the hospital and at a separate clinic.

We have a medical school branch where such people can get regular health care.

We have a fairly advanced cancer center funded largely by a private foundation and other charitable gifts.

Several times a year checkups, various screenings, etc. are offered free of charge or at reduced rates at clinics sponsored by various groups.

Are we the only community in the country that does such things? If our community of 200,000 can do it why can't others?

[excon]

Are you saying they don't? If you are, you are either lying or lacking in the facts.

Hello again, El:

If you have a complaint, they'll treat you at the ER. If you have a ROUTINE procedure that you need, such as a check up, they won't. If you say they will, you're either lying or you don't have the facts.

Steve, you say I won't answer your question, yet you won't answer mine. If all this great health care is available just for the asking, why would ANYBODY buy insurance??

excon

[NeedKarma]

If all this great health care is available just for the asking, why would ANYBODY buy insurance??????

excon

Good question.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, El:

If you have a complaint, they'll treat you at the ER. If you have a ROUTINE procedure that you need, such as a check up, they won't. If you say they will, you're either lying or you don't have the facts.

Steve, you say I won't answer your question, yet you won't answer mine. If all this great health care is available just for the asking, why would ANYBODY buy insurance??????

No one said it was "just for the asking." I do say no one has to go without health care. I've also explained what the purpose of insurance was, to "insure" against catastrophic loss and not pay for your every sniffle. If you guys want to pay for every sniffle for the uninsured then take some of those billions of federal dollars and build some clinics for those who need it, open up the insurance industry to more competition such as cross-state shopping, allow us to pick what we want to pay for in a policy, enact tort reform - and leave the rest of us alone.

I believe in a safety net for those who truly need it, but I don't believe in the liberal idea of "social justice." I buy insurance of all kinds because I'm a responsible person, I want to protect my family and I want to protect others from a loss if I'm liable. That's why we buy insurance, we work hard, we pay our way, we want to be responsible. Many DON'T because they AREN'T responsible, not just because they can't afford it.