[sndbay]

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:


Phl 3:11-12 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

[jmjoseph]

My wife and I both were baptised/christened, and we are going to do the same, absolutely, with our two sons. We are dedicated Christians, and will raise our boys in the church.

" Take me to the river" !

[sndbay]

My wife and I both were baptised/christened, and we are going to do the same, absolutely, with our two sons. We are dedicated Christians, and will raise our boys in the church.

" Take me to the river" !

As Christians we should teach our children the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we acknowledge that the Word that is Christ Jesus is profitable to the instruction of righteousness. (Tts 3:8 - 2 Tim 3:16)

The quote of "Take me to the river" would suggest the belief of ONE baptism, (Eph 4:5)One faith, One Lord... And in confessed love to Christ, yes we are submerged in washing the flesh in pure water, and holding in a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21 - Hebrews 10:22)

1 Peter 1:3-4-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[JoeT777]

Sndbay, et al:

You obviously object to infant baptism. None of the scripture presented thus far warn against, or forbid outright, infant baptism. Akoue, Arcura, and myself have shown why Catholics hold infant baptism as being important for the a child, or the adult, and why the child’s guardians are obligated to see to his baptism.

Catholics believe that baptism is a decree from Christ that, “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” For the Catholic it becomes the “the “door” to spiritual life into the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The form is “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost”. It is a laving of original sin and actual sin; removing sin and its punishment with only the temporal effects of sin remaining. Concupiscence (a propensity or predilection toward sin) is the remnant of remitted original sin. The sacrament has both interior and exterior elements. Water literally washes away sin through the grace of the Holy Spirit all sin. Both original and actual sins are ‘washed’ away; “a remission of sins in hope”. There is a real interior grace conferred and made permanently resident in the child’s (or adult’s) life to be exercised thereby uniting the soul with God. A grace whose efficacy depends on the degree of cooperation freely employed in its derivative born in the Passion of Christ. Thus, the child (or adult) is given a doorway into the Kingdom of God (the Church), a means by which the interior can then receive the other Sacraments, and a means by which the recipient can truly commune in worship.

Of course the most important effect of Baptism is the remission of sins and the conferred grace. Origen (In Gen. xiii) writes: "If you transgress, you write unto yourself the handwriting of sin. But, behold, when you have once approached to the cross of Christ and to the grace of baptism, your handwriting is affixed to the cross and blotted out in the font of baptism.” In this vein we respond to the graces of baptism. Like the heart is the muscle that keeps the body alive so too is the grace of baptism a spiritual muscle meant to bind the soul in Christ, thereby like circumcision for the Jew, joins us to the Mystical Body of Christ. And, like any muscle the more exercise the grace of baptism the stronger the bond becomes. Thus we have the baptized young growing in their spiritual strength over their entire life, irrespective of age.

So, given the reasons Catholic baptizes the infants and the young, being you so obviously object, why withhold such graces from your children? Biblical or not, what error in 2,000 years of Catholic Tradition has been committed?

JoeT

[450donn]

For the last time.
MK1:4-6
LK7:29
RO 6:4-7
EP 4:5
Jesus himself was about 30 years old when he was baptized. So if you were to follow HIS example you would not baptize anyone younger than adulthood. Just because it has been a custom in the Roman Catholic church for centuries does not automatically mean that it is right and that everyone else is wrong.
Lets face the facts here, it appears that most of you are Catholic, and that is your prerogative. But there is no reason you need to think that the rest of us are totally wrong and keep trying to shove your theology down our throats!

[JoeT777]

For the last time.
MK1:4-6
LK7:29
RO 6:4-7
EP 4:5
Jesus himself was about 30 years old when he was baptized. So if you were to follow HIS example you would not baptize anyone younger than adulthood. Just because it has been a custom in the Roman Catholic church for centuries does not automatically mean that it is right and that everyone else is wrong.
Lets face the facts here, it appears that most of you are Catholic, and that is your prerogative. But there is no reason you need to think that the rest of us are totally wrong and keep trying to shove your theology down our throats!

Oh, but I do disagree on several accounts.

First, because Christ was 30 before baptism doesn't mean that we should be baptized at 30 - I don't know many Protestants that wait till 30. This is a funny joke I just don't happen to get, right? But equally important, what happens if Christ was 29 or 31 or 32, when He was baptized; does that invalidate all baptisms of men who are 30-years of age?

Second, I do hold that the Catholic faith is the ONE, HOLY, Catholic, and APOLSTALIC Church, and thus it's in her we find the fullness of faith, so we see right reasoning in her alone.

Third, The Roman Catholic Church is an apostolic Church, whereby she receives her commission directly from Christ. Thus, we are bond to the truths she teaches through the Magisterium – Catholics aren't allowed to make-up their own truth. Consequently, in my book, insofar as these matters concerned, it makes her automatically correct.

Fourth, your post suggests that you can submit a 'subjective' truth, but I can't post objective truth. Why is that?

Fifth, if ingesting this truth and other similar truths hurts, try not to swallow so hard.


JoeT

[sndbay]

Sndbay, et al:

It is a laving of original sin and actual sin; removing sin and its punishment with only the temporal effects of sin remaining.

Why I continue to post is because the custom and doctrine of man, makes void the Word of God as it is written. Doing so goes against God to follow man and their doctrine. The refer of the scripture (1 Peter 3:21) clearly tells us that baptism does not put away the filth of the flesh, and I acknowledge this is truth...And acknowledge the blood of Christ on the cross set us free from sin. That finished, now the Catholic church could open a door to worship and teach the gospel of Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: below

So my patience in offering God truth as it is written is to edify in shown love of Christ. We as Christians are to share the love of Christ with others, and never hold back the portion of what Christ has given each in accordance to HIS power and dominion.

Thus, the child (or adult) is given a doorway into the Kingdom of God (the Church), a means by which the interior can then receive the other Sacraments, and a means by which the recipient can truly commune in worship.

As Paul wrote, his teaching was not done by fear refer:
2 Timothy 1:7-11 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Of course the most important effect of Baptism is the remission of sins and the conferred grace.

The importance of baptism is that we are then buried with Christ.( Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life)(Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead)

So, given the reasons why Catholic baptizes the infants and the young, being you so obviously object, why withhold such graces from your children?
JoeT

All souls belong to God.. And what we were before the begotten Son of God redeemed us and delivered us is sheep going astray... BUT NOW REJOICE!! because we are retruned unto the Bishop of our souls.

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

[JoeT777]

Why I continue to post is because the custom and doctrine of man, makes void the Word of God as it is written. Doing so goes against God to follow man and their doctrine. The refer of the scripture (1 Peter 3:21) clearly tells us that baptism does not put away the filth of the flesh, and I acknowledge this is truth...And acknowledge the blood of Christ on the cross set us free from sin. That finished, now the Catholic church could open a door to worship and teach the gospel of Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: below
21 Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So my patience in offering God truth as it is written is to edify in shown love of Christ. We as Christians are to share the love of Christ with others, and never hold back the portion of what Christ has given each in accordance to HIS power and dominion.

With that same patience I offer to show how the doors to that very same Church have always been open; efforts to build a new portico are fruitless.

Yours is a common misinterpretation in that Peter is discussing the nature of the water; rather it's not the water that cleanses but rather the presence of the Holy Spirit. St. Basil discusses it this way in De Spiritu Sancto:

“It follows that if there is any grace in the water, it is not of the nature of the water, but of the presence of the Spirit. For baptism is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God. 1 Peter 3:21 So in training us for the life that follows on the resurrection the Lord sets out all the manner of life required by the Gospel, laying down for us the law of gentleness, of endurance of wrong, of freedom from the defilement that comes of the love of pleasure, and from covetousness, to the end that we may of set purpose win beforehand and achieve all that the life to come of its inherent nature possesses. If therefore any one in attempting a definition were to describe the gospel as a forecast of the life that follows on the resurrection, he would not seem to me to go beyond what is meet and right.”

This verse says that soap and water alone do not wash away the filth of sin. Like Noah's salvation, it was God that of choose the 8, not the water. It's God that moves the conscience towards God, it's not man looking to his own conscience to discern holiness.

St. Augustine picks up this theme reminding us that it is "the conscience of him who gives in holiness is what we look for to wash the conscience of the recipient." For when something is given that is of God, it is given in holiness, even by a conscience which is not holy. And certainly it is beyond the power of the recipient to discern whether the said conscience is holy or not holy; but that which is given he can discern with clearness. That which is known to Him who is ever holy is received with perfect safety, whatever be the character of the minister at whose hands it is received. For unless the words which are spoken from Moses' seat were necessarily holy, He that is the Truth would never have said, "Whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do." But if the men who uttered holy words were themselves holy, He would not have said, "Do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." Matthew 23:2-3 For it is true that in no way do men gather grapes of thorns, because grapes never spring from the root of a thorn; but when the shoot of the vine has entwined itself in a thorn hedge, the fruit which hangs upon it is not therefore looked upon with dread, but the thorn is avoided, while the grape is plucked. Answer to Petilian the Donatist (Augustine) Book III, 8 CHURCH FATHERS: Answer to Petilian the Donatist, Book III (Augustine)

As Paul wrote his teaching was not done by fear refer:
2 Timothy 1:7-11 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Nobody on this side of the screen 'fears.' What about yours?

The importance of baptism is that we are then buried with Christ.( Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life)(Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead)

All souls belong to God.. And what we were before the begotten Son of God redeemed us and delivered us is sheep going astray... BUT NOW REJOICE!! because we are retruned unto the Bishop of our souls.

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The importance of baptism is that “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

JoeT

[arcura]

sndbay,
We believe that The Holy Spirit begins working with in a person who is baptixed no matter what their age.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Fr_Chuck]

And as I noted before there are few churches today that would accept the baptism of Jesus as valid, since it was not done in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit, and/ or was not done in Jesus name.

Also Johns baptism was not for salvation , could not be since Jesus was not raised yet

[arcura]

Ft_Chuck,
That is interesting.
However, I believe that Jesus had John baptize Him for an imortant reason.
What was it?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Council of Trent (Sess. VII, De Baptismo) spacifically says that John’s baptism wasn’t salvific.

But, we do know that there was a spiritual reason from Matthew 3, “lo, the heavens were opened to him”. I don’t know the formula John used, but it is known from Mark 1 that John was “preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins”

JoeT

[Karamel]

I personally believe that baptism is a very serious thing. You are making a dedication to serve God. I don't believe that a child should be baptized. They do not understand what dedication means. And, in the future if they choose not to serve God they can have the choice without any restrictions. I believe you should wait until they are old enough to understand the meaning behind it and what it intails before just baptizing them. It's a very PERSONAL occasion and it is the CHILD's choice. It's their spirituality.

[arcura]

JoeT,
Thanks for posting that.
Yes I believe that there was a significant spiritual reason what Jesus insisted on John to baptize Him.
I'm not certain what that reason was but being for the forgiveness of sins and Jesus demonstrating how important that was is a part of it; Though Jesus had no sins that needed forgiveness.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Karamel:

I agree that baptism is a serious thing. And you would be right about children if it was John's baptism. In response to the question 'whether Christ alone should have been baptized with the baptism of John?' St. Thomas writes:

“This was the baptism of "penance," for which children were not suited; wherefore they were not baptized therewith. But to bring the nations into the way of salvation was reserved to Christ alone, who is the "expectation of the nations," as we read Genesis 49:10. Indeed, Christ forbade the apostles to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles before His Passion and Resurrection. Much less fitting, therefore, was it for the Gentiles to be baptized by John.” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Third Part, Question 38)

In regard to “Whether it was fitting for Christ to be baptized with John's baptism?” St. Thomas writes explains that Jesus couldn't have been; otherwise he would have baptized in the name of the Father, ME, and the Holy Spirit:

“As Augustine says (Super Joan. Tract. Xiii): "After being baptized, the Lord baptized, not with that baptism wherewith He was baptized." Wherefore, since He Himself baptized with His own baptism, it follows that He was not baptized with His own, but with John's baptism."

And too, in regard to the nature of John's baptism we find that it was not of the same characteristics as Christ's baptism. Simply put, John baptized of water, it was an outward laver:

“And this was befitting: first, because John's baptism was peculiar in this, that he baptized, not in the Spirit, but only "in water"; while Christ did not need spiritual baptism, since He was filled with the grace of the Holy Ghost from the beginning of His conception, as we have made clear above (Question 34, Article 1). And this is the reason given by Chrysostom (Hom. De Bapt. Christi). Secondly, as Bede says on Mark 1:9, He was baptized with the baptism of John, that, "by being thus baptized, He might show His approval of John's baptism." Thirdly, as Gregory Nazianzen says (Orat. Xxxix), "by going to John to be baptized by him, He sanctified baptism." … The Jewish baptism prescribed by the law was merely figurative, whereas John's baptism, in a measure, was real, inasmuch as it induced men to refrain from sin; but Christ's baptism is efficacious unto the remission of sin and the conferring of grace. Now Christ needed neither the remission of sin, which was not in Him, nor the bestowal of grace, with which He was filled. Moreover, since He is "the Truth," it was not fitting that He should receive that which was no more than a figure. Consequently it was more fitting that He should receive the intermediate baptism than one of the extremes. (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Third Part, Question 39)

So, as I see it, John's baptism is much like those who believe that baptism is only a matter of faith; salvation is by faith alone - which can't be. Whereas, Christ's baptism imparts a real inner and spiritual cleansing as well as a forgiveness of sins; and too, a real salvation.

source: SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The baptizing of Christ (Tertia Pars, Q. 39)

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
Thanks much again for you post.
I am very interested in what the early Church fathers had to say about that for they mention why they believed as they did.
I am also interested in what others here have to say about it and why they believe as they do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

But, we do know that there was a spiritual reason from Matthew 3, “lo, the heavens were opened to him”. I don’t know the formula John used, but it is known from Mark 1 that John was “preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins”

JoeT

Is the reason why you question John baptizing, and what you refer to as his formula because you think John himself was the power in baptism?

[sndbay]

sndbay,
We believe that The Holy Spirit begins working with in a person who is baptixed no matter what their age.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, As do I believe in the presence of the Holy Spirit. There are many changes from what was and what came to be after Christ dead and was raise. His promise of the Holy Spirit to come as our comforter, is the presence of God with us. I also believe God gives HIS angels charge over our path to help and protect us. (Psa 91:11-12)
My trust and love is always in Christ Jesus who is the shepherd of my soul. Because I find HIM worthy, body and blood, having power and dominion over all. (Eph 1:21 - Jud 1:25)

Reality of no other gods above HIM

~in Christ