[bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE]

So a woman is prude because she doesn't like strip clubs? Hmmm?

[bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE]

I can see this is going no where Mr. Smoothy. Good luck with your strip clubs.

[Nestorian]

I think it's possible that it's difficult for men to understand that women could feel degraded by men that glorify them in strip clubs. Modern culture has taught us that the only women who should be valued are the ones that look a certain way. I don't know what a fair comparison is for men....it seems so rare that a man gets degraded in the same way that porn degrades women. Perhaps it's a feeling that they can't relate to and/or understand. Sure there are male strip clubs, but i've only heard of other women going there to get a good laugh, and even then, the number of male strip clubs does not come anywhere close to the number of female strip clubs. Perhaps it's just something that men don't think about and/or understand.

"I think it's possible that it's difficult for women to understand that men could feel degraded by women that glorify other men in general. Modern culture has "conditioned/wired/brainwashed" us to interpret that the only men who should be valued are the ones that look a certain way. I don't know what a fair comparison is for women....it seems so rare that a woman gets degraded in the same way that media/the past degrades men. Perhaps it's a feeling that they can't relate to and/or understand. Sure there are Female strip clubs, but i've only heard of other men going there to get a good laugh, on the side sex and even then, the number of female strip clubs does not come anywhere close to the number of male stigmas. Perhaps it's just something that women don't think about and/or understand."

MMmmm, yes, though my argument is some what off in there, I sense that the point is quite clear. Over generalizing doesn't not seem to be very helpful, so much as it is a hindrance. To move past sexism and things of the sort, we would need to stop using stereo types so that we each, as individuals in individual situations, open our minds to what is really in front of us.

Generalizations are too hollow, fake, inconsistent, and do not represent every one fairly. "Believe nothing no matter where you read it, no matter who said it, no matter if I said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense... rely on real wisdom not superficial interpretation... rely on the essence of your pure wisdom mind not on judgmental perceptions... The tongue like a sharp knife kills with out drawing blood. Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world... Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace... All conditioned things in the world are changeable. They are not lasting. Try to accomplish your own salvation with diligence."- Buddha

One word that brings peace? "Being"


Peace and kindness be with you.

[Nestorian]

Its human nature.

But, does it have to be?

[smoothy]

[quote=blingaru;1687044]

Agin...purely perspective of women with self esteme issues.

Talk to some dancers....being degraded...hardly...they are in control and sucker guys out of their money for a little jiggle. Many make over $500 an hour for doing nothing more than shaking their butt and laughing on their way to the bank. Hardly women being exploited. This isn't a third world Brothel we are talking about. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in the world because it does....to both sexes for different reasons.

Who gets upset about men preffering in shape women that take care of themselves? Obviously the larger women that can't be bothered to exercize or watch their calorig intake. Trust me women get the same exact way when it comes to men...they case after a arrogant Brad Pitt rather than chase after the really nice guy that happens wo weight 350 lbs. So its not purely a guy thing there.


Again, I don't think it's as simple as self esteem. I know several educated, beautiful women that are fit and take care of themselves. Have successful careers, and have very healthy self esteems and feelings of self worth. Yet, many of those people find strip clubs to be degrading. Is it because they have poor self esteem? Nope. You'd have to ask them yourselves, but I believe it's because of the negative connotations associated with these clubs. One of the women I speak of has a masters degree in psychology and has actually done extensive research in this field. The research she did found that the majority of women working in strip clubs had extremely low feelings of self worth. Most of them began to hate men because of the way they acted in the club, and some of them would only date other women - not because they were born lesbian, but because working in the clubs had created such a loathing and mistrust of all men. Most of the women also had drug issues. Most got high or drunk on a consistant basis just so that they could deal with the objectification and the horrid way in which the men acted. Note that I keep saying the word "most". I'd have to ask my friend on specific statistics, but in all of these various examples I am giving, the statistics were well over 65%. That's very significant I think.

To each their own, but I don't believe that sacrificing your self dignity for money is empowerment, and I don't believe that it equates to self respect. Perhaps I am in the minority, but I would much rather scrape by doing something that I loved to do and gave me a feeling of real accomplishment and self worth. To me, accomplishment is not looking a certain way and having people stare at you and then in turn give you money for that.

I know and have known a few dancers... dated two as well. You froiend with the statistics that suspiciously supports her personal feelings on the case... I consdier suspect. No woman dancing around here does it because she is forced to... they do it at will, and in fact pay the clubs to dance from their tips... they make serious money. They can quit whenever they want. True, I'll agree its not for everyone... and incidentally did your friend tell you that most dancers don't nessessarily look kindly upon those for trowing money at them?

Yeah you are going to have lesbians everyplace... not just Dancing.. and not because of dancing. Hell a couple screwed up women would not turn me gay after all. Dancing doesn't turn women lesbian unless they had the predisposition in the first place.


Quite a few get Masters Degrees in College paying for it with dancing... finish school debt free and walk away. Not uncommon here at all.

[smoothy]

So a woman is prude because she doesn't like strip clubs? Hmmm?

A prude makes snippy comments about other peoples likes because they do not agree with her own.

Just like women who will not do oral, anal or anything but missionary. Yet think they are gods gift to mankind. And there are women out there like that... total bores in bed that honestly believe they are the greatest thing walking the earth. Because I very briefly dated a few and they can't possibly be the only ones like that..

[smoothy]

But, does it have to be?

Yes... because otherwise you end up with people like Chairman Mao or Pol Pot (just two of many examples) "reeducating" people who don't agree with THEIR way of thinking. And we all know the results of that.

[blingaru]

[QUOTE=smoothy;1687119]

I know and have known a few dancers....dated two as well. Yuo froiend with the statistics that suspiciously supports her personal feelings on the case.....I consdier suspect. No woman dancing around here does it because she is forced to...they do it at will, and in fact pay the clubs to dance from their tips....they make serious money. They can quit whenever they want. True, I'll agree its not for everyone...and incidently did your friend tell you that most dancers don't nessessarily look kindly upon those for trowing money at them?

Yeah you are going to have lesbians everyplace....not just Dancing.. and not because of dancing. Hell a couple screwed up women would not turn me gay after all. Dancing doesn't turn women lesbian unless they had the predisposition in the first place.


Quite a few get Masters Degrees in College paying for it with dancing....finish school debt free and walk away. Not uncommon here at all.

I don't recall saying that her personal feelings supported her research before she started it. In fact it was the research that made her feel the way she does. The school she went to was actually one of the highest rates Universities in Canada and believe me - if her research was biased in any way - she wouldn't have graduated and wouldn't have passed her thesis.

I also didn't say it turned women lesbian - and I also feel there is absolutely nothing wrong with being lesbian. What I said was that women who were born heterosexual could no longer have heterosexual relationships because of the negative feelings their work gave them towards men.

Perhaps the strippers that you know fall into at 25-35% of women who don't have ill effects. Have you thought that although the women aren't "forced" into it, that they may not have any other options due to lack of education and lack of credible job experience? Most good jobs require similar experience. I can't see any good job hiring anyone who's only job experience was in a strip club.

[45notdaddy]

80% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

[Nestorian]

A prude makes snippy comments about other peoples likes because they do not agree with her own.

Just like women who will not do oral, anal or anything but missionary. Yet think they are gods gift to mankind. And there are women out there like that...total bores in bed that honestly believe they are the greatest thing walking the earth. Because I very breifly dated a few and they can't possibly be the only ones like that..

Kind of like us, acting like we know all the answers, but really we know about as much as any one else? ;)

[blingaru]

[QUOTE=45notdaddy;1687150]80% of all statistics are made up on the spot.[/QUOTE

Statistics can be made up. But if you're doing research that is going to be printed in a scholarly journal, you have to back up where those statistics came from. You also have to re-do them several times to see if the results you got the first time were acurate. All of the research was very well documented. "making them up" doesn't fly in a serious post-secondary academic setting.

[smoothy]

[quote=blingaru;1687144]

I don't recall saying that her personal feelings supported her research before she started it. In fact it was the research that made her feel the way she does. The school she went to was actually one of the highest rates Universities in Canada and believe me - if her research was biased in any way - she wouldn't have graduated and wouldn't have passed her thesis.

I also didn't say it turned women lesbian - and I also feel there is absolutely nothing wrong with being lesbian. What I said was that women who were born heterosexual could no longer have heterosexual relationships because of the negative feelings their work gave them towards men.

Perhaps the strippers that you know fall into at 25-35% of women who don't have ill effects. Have you thought that although the women aren't "forced" into it, that they may not have any other options due to lack of education and lack of credible job experience? Most good jobs require similiar experience. I can't see any good job hiring anyone who's only job experience was in a strip club.

Depends on what work they are willing to do... there are quite a few people that think they are above doing certain types of work... or unwilling to live within the means they are able to earn. Which is their own fault.

Now is it possible those dancers I know fell into that percentage you quoted? Yes its possible... you are going to have a percentage of people with issues in many jobs, including Law enforcement.

As far as University Studies credibility... I can't speak for Canadian Universities... I know little about them, but I do know most US Universities seem to be populated with left wing extremeists who will fail students that disagree with their opinions for any reason... sad but true. Being a college graduate myself, I see the political lean to many "studies" on certain topics. So excuse me for not accepting many at face value.

[Nestorian]

Yes.....because otherwise you end up with people like Chairman Mao or Pol Pot (just two of many examples) "reeducating" people who don't agree with THEIR way of thinking. And we all know the results of that.

From the day we were born, we were "reeducated". This seems Highly pobable since we did at some point have ancestors that didn't have cars, plains, trains, or automobiles. We don't know what human nature truly is, but I might say that everything that any one ever does is a result of human nature. Naturally we became more intelligent, and thus we learned to "reeducate" ourselves.

Look at it this way, we don't need a computer, a big 1800sq' house, super exxpencive clothes, 2 cars, and so on. We know we could live with out them, but we choose not to. Simply by choosing this, we are "reeducating" ourselves. Essetially we become the blind leading the blind.

[smoothy]

[quote=blingaru;1687161]

80% of all statistics are made up on the spot.[/QUOTE

Statistics can be made up. But if you're doing research that is going to be printed in a scholarly journal, you have to back up where those statistics came from. You also have to re-do them several times to see if the results you got the first time were acurate. All of the research was very well documented. "making them up" doesn't fly in a serious post-secondary academic setting.

Still a lot of those can be creatively faked... or distorted. It may take work... but if you have a board that expects certain results... those results can be found one way or another. I can't think of specifics to cite when this has happened recently but there have been cases that I remember.

[blingaru]

[QUOTE=smoothy;1687179]

Still a lot of those can be creatively faked...or distorted. It may take work...but if you have a board that expects certain results....those results can be found one way or another. I can't think of specifics when this has happened recently but there have been cases.

True. However I believe the statistics that supported her thesis were in line with countless other studies that were done at different times by different people in different places. That much distortion is highly unlikely.

[smoothy]

From the day we were born, we were "reeducated". This seems Highly pobable since we did at some point have ancestors that didn't have cars, plains, trains, or automobiles. We don't know what human nature truely is, but I might say that everything that any one ever does is a result of human nature. Naturally we became more inteligent, and thus we learned to "reeducate" our selves.

Look at it this way, we don't need a computer, a big 1800sq' house, super exxpencive clothes, 2 cars, and so on. We know we could live with out them, but we choose not to. Simply by choosing this, we are "reeducating" ourselves. Essetially we become the blind leading the blind.

We have how many Billions of people on this earth... and there is always one group willing to FORCE their way upon others if given the chance... by force if nessessary. And they will harm or kill those who won't conform.

Pol Pot Killed millions who didn't fit his idea of acceptable... Chairman Mao killed millions as well as Stalin... killed tens of millions for not embracing their socialist ideal for the "Good" of the nation.

I personally detest everything those mentioned people stood for or preached... I will not be reeducated support their beliefs. Nor will I accept them.

Human nature is there will be many different schools of thought... human nature isn't to kill anyone who will not agree with your way of doing things however.

But that is getting way off topic of Adult sexuality and getting squarely into politics.

[Synnen]

Okay... this is now getting off-topic.

Either stick to how the OP (or any other woman) can get over the issues she has regarding strippers/porn, or take it to Member Discussions.

[kp2171]

Calling men vicious dogs for watching a woman strip isn't that much different than calling someone a prude for hating the same thing. They are both name calling.

As for smoothy's wife... do we need to go there? Really?

One must assume that because they (she and he) are more experimental than some and interested in more things that some call taboo, that he only sees her as t&a?

*sigh*

Nestorian... thanks for your posts. As to "human nature" I would say, often, yes... but that doesn't dictate how we must act. Again... if I see a curvy woman on the beach, I AM going to have some element of primal response. Period.

That doesn't mean I only define every woman by their physical appearance. I'm not completely stupid (this is where my partner says "really?")

In fact the only consistent attribute in every woman I've ever dated, and usually find attractive, is confidence. I'm not saying I haven't pursued women also because I was physically attracted on some level... of course I have.

[kp2171]

Okay...this is now getting off-topic.

Either stick to how the OP (or any other woman) can get over the issues she has regarding strippers/porn, or take it to Member Discussions.

Yep. This is a couple more blows away from being shut down and cleaned up.

[45notdaddy]

yep. this is a couple more blows away from being shut down and cleaned up.

Just put it down now please.