[SkyGem]

For those having questions and wishing to know what the Catholic position is on communication with the deceased, please read the following information:

EVP and Vatican

Let's have more discussion on this Important if not controversial item! I would like to hear what others have to say about the Vatican allowing communication with the departed. The article says that an official from the Vatican says it is alright to engage in such communications. Now, let's hear what you think.

[Tj3]

Another Catholic bashing, it sure gets old and meaningless. Praying, as asking for intercession, is praying. It is a form of communication, yes, but it is not like conjuring up a dead spirit and talking to them.

No one is "bashing" anyone. So far everyone that have seen is dealing with the topic.

Scripture prohibits communication with the dead - that is the point.

[Tj3]

Again, as is your choice. Sure wish you had been at THE INQUISITION to tell all of those crazy people to stop the killings as murder is against God's Sixth Commandment. Sorry you weren't! God certainly speaks to people and works in mysterious ways much of which we shall never fully understand. But the only contradiction about what others may be receiving from God is only in your mind as you are of that mind-set already in that things have to be a certain way or no way at all. Knowing you for the short amount of time that I have, I certainly understand that only too well.

The contradiction is between you and scripture. You said that Jesus spoke to the dead and called Lazarus back into his body. Scripture says that God the father brought Lazarus back to life.

We are told to test every spirit, and any spirit which contradicts God's word is not of God.

[SkyGem]

The contradiction is between you and scripture. You said that Jesus spoke to the dead and called Lazarus back into his body. Scripture says that God the father brought Lazarus back to life.

We are told to test every spirit, and any spirit which contradicts God's word is not of God.

I know and understand Scripture, believe me. But how interesting that you are revealing your disbelief of Scripture due to what you are saying here since you apparently do not recognize nor want to admit that Jesus and the Father are One, we now truly know where you are coming from.

[Tj3]

I know and understand Scripture, believe me. But how interesting that you are revealing your disbelief of Scripture due to what you are saying here since you apparently do not recognize nor want to admit that Jesus and the Father are One, we now truly know where you are coming from.

Are you denying the trinity? Are you denying that the One true God is made up of three persons, father, Son and Holy Spirit?

[fancyT]

Let's have more discussion on this Important if not controversial item! I would like to hear what others have to say about the Vatican allowing communication with the departed. The article says that an official from the Vatican says it is alright to engage in such communications. Now, let's hear what you think.

Communication with the dead according to the bible is communicating with demonic spirits posing as a dead relative. The bible teaches us that when one dies they either go to Hell or heaven. As paul said Absent from the Body is present with Christ. There is no way to communicate with the dead because their spirits are not on earth as people would like to believe. Jesus never tried to communicated with the dead so why should we? I don't agree with the catholics saying it is okey and I don't agree with praying through Mary or dead saints because it is not biblical. Jesus said no one can come to the father but by me, and the word said the Holy Spirit is the one that interceeds for us.

[SkyGem]

Are you denying the trinity? Are you denying that the One true God is made up of three persons, father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Anyone who has read my posts would immediately know the answer to the questions you are asking, that being that I would NEVER deny the Holy Trinity and have often said that Jesus is One in the Holy Trinity (God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit). I have said that time and again, especially as given on Jan 5, 2008, 09:39 PM. Conversely, since it is you who have not given a clear answer to those questions in this forum, I therefore, turn the tables on you at this time and ask Do you deny the Holy Trinity? Are you in denial about God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit being One in The Holy Trinity? I ask you again, Do you believe that Jesus is ONE in The Holy Trinity, Tj3? Your answer is important in context to my replies and I will show you why once you answer this question. Since you opened this "door", from now on I will continue asking you this question in each subsequent post until you give us a clear answer.
[/B]

[Tj3]

I have to ask that because anyone who has read my posts would immediately know the answer to the questions you are asking, that being that I would NEVER deny the Holy Trinity and have often said that Jesus is One in the Holy Trinity (God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit).

Good. Now, perhaps you should check out the references.

You claimed that Jesus spoke to Lazarus in the flesh when he was dead. What does scripture says:

John 11:38-44
38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, "Take away the stone." Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, "Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days." 40 Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?" 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me." 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!" 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Loose him, and let him go."
NKJV

Note two things. Jesus prayed to the father and the Father answered His prayer. The Father refers to God the Father.

After the prayer to raise Lazarus from the dead was answered, Jesus calls to Lazarus.

Note that there are two persons of the trinity involved, and note that Jesus called Lazarus AFTER the Father answer His prayer.

You said that the Son and the father were one and the same. They are two persons of the trinity, but your argument was that Jesus in the flesh spoke to the dead. You are wrong on many points as shown in this passage:

1) Jesus was God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16). God the father was NEVER manifest in the flesh.

2) God the Son (Jesus) and God the father are not one and the same person, or they would both have to be manifest in the flesh at the same time. They are two of the three persons of the trinity (One God) (Thus also the answer to your question - if you want a more detailed answer, go my article on this topic - [ http://www.geocities.com/smithtj.geo/whoisjesus.pdf ).

3) God the father, not Jesus raised Lazarus. Lazarus therefore was not raised by Jesus calling to Him in the spirit to return to his body when he was dead.

Now, please rather than getting abusive, kindly deal with the issue at hand.

[SkyGem]

Now, please rather than getting abusive, kindly deal with the issue at hand.

Be glad to and no "abuse" needed as that is just not my style. When Jesus said "I and my Father are One" He was in the flesh not in Spirit. That tells the story. Since Jesus and His Father are One, when Jesus called upon His Father, He was also calling upon Himself and His Divine power that then raised Lazarus. That is the point I have been trying to get across to you.

Now, you still haven't answered my question: Do you believe that Jesus and The Father are One?

[Fr_Chuck]

The idea of comparing Jesus or the times the 12 raised people from the dead has anything in common with talking to the dead is just silly reaching for strays that just don't exist, First there was no converstation, a command to come back to life, is not talking ( two way converstation)

One has to really have no idea of bibical teachings if that is what you have to fall back to.

[Tj3]

Be glad to and no "abuse" needed as that is just not my style.

Good. I am glad that you agree and I hope that is the last that we see of it.

When Jesus said "I and my Father are One" He was in the flesh not in Spirit. That tells the story. Since Jesus and His Father are One, when Jesus called upon His Father, He was also calling upon Himself and His Divine power that then raised Lazarus. That is the point I have been trying to get across to you.

That sounds similar the modalist teachings. The trinitarian doctrine is that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one God, but three distinct persons. Thus when Jesus is speaking to the Father, He is speaking to the first person of the trinity. It is only Jesus who is fully God and fully man, God the father is not fully man. The best summary of the orthodox doctrine of the trinity which I hold to and which we find taught in scripture is "Three persons, one God".

Now, you still haven't answered my question: Do you believe that Jesus and The Father are One?[/B]

I answered your question in complete detail already. I notice however, that you gave no response to what I said. Read what I said, and if you have further questions after you have read what I said, you are welcome to ask.

[Galveston1]

I said I wouldn't, but just can't help myself! Off the subject again, but---.

Luke 4:17-19
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
(KJV)

Col 2:9
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
(KJV)
More could be cited, but these should do. It seems no one is realizing that Jesus did His miracles because of the anointing of the Holy Spirit, not because of His divinity. He later sent that same Holy Spirit back to His followers so that they could do the same works as He did. Col. 2:9 lets us know that He contained the Holy Spirit completely, whereas we may not have the same capacity.

[SkyGem]

The idea of comparing Jesus or the times the 12 raised people from the dead has anything in common with talking to the dead is just silly reaching for strays that just don't exist, First there was no converstation, a command to come back to life, is not talking ( two way converstation)

One has to really have no idea of bibical teachings if that is what you have to fall back to.

With all due respect, Chuck, you apparently are making reference to being a priest from the way you sign your name, I don't know if it is merely metaphorical or real, nevertheless, if you knew the Bible you would realize that when Jesus cried out in a loud voice "Lazarus Come Forth!" (JOHN 11:43 (KJV), He spoke (conversed) with Lazarus' spirit. If that isn't talking to the dead (after all, was Lazarus alive at that time?) where Lazarus obeyed by his spirit coming back into his body in response to Jesus' calling Him, then I don't know how it can come any closer.

And you, as the "pot" are one to talk trying to call the "kettle" black about having no idea of Biblical teachings when you can't even spell the word (look above) much less know what it stands for. It's truly sad, but we've been warned Catholics just don't study the Bible. End of my "converstation" with you. Now, I'll have to go as I am awaiting a response from Tj3 as I have something for him.

[SkyGem]

With all due respect, Chuck, you apparently are making reference to being a priest from the way you sign your name, I don't know if it is merely metaphorical or real, nevertheless, if you knew the Bible you would realize that when Jesus cried out in a loud voice "Lazarus Come Forth!" (JOHN 11:43 (KJV), He spoke (conversed) with Lazarus' spirit. If that isn't talking to the dead (after all, was Lazarus alive at that time?) where Lazarus obeyed by his spirit coming back into his body in response to Jesus' calling Him, then I don't know how it can come any closer.

And you, as the "pot" are one to talk trying to call the "kettle" black about having no idea of Biblical teachings when you can't even spell the word (look above) much less know what it stands for. It's truly sad, but we've been warned Catholics just don't study the Bible. End of my "converstation" with you. Now, I'll have to go as I am awaiting a response from Tj3 as I have something for him.

Hey, Chuck, You know, of course, that I am saying all this with a wink of one eye, don't you? Just want to make sure. I like everyone, you, and Tj3 no matter what! We all exhibit passion when we speak but that is what life is all about. If it wasn't for "converstation" like the one we three, especially, have had going, it would probably not attract the very people we need to come to this site to learn more about God and how to become Born Again. Praise Be To God! May every person seeking Him, find Him, and if we can help in one small way, then it would have been all worth the effort! Hugs to you dear friend!

[SkyGem]

That sounds similar the modalist teachings. The trinitarian doctrine is that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one God, but three distinct persons. Thus when Jesus is speaking to the Father, He is speaking to the first person of the trinity. It is only Jesus who is fully God and fully man, God the father is not fully man. The best summary of the orthodox doctrine of the trinity which I hold to and which we find taught in scripture is "Three persons, one God".

Well, of course. That is what I was trying for you to realize all this time. Jesus spoke to The Father but He was nevertheless One in God (I and my Father are One). Why did you not acknowledge that to begin with and we could have avoided much span of bandwidth with the ensuing discussion? And why did you have to infer that I would deny the Trinity? That is not right of you to do in God's eyes and I hope you now know better. After all, put yourself in my place and imagine what you would have felt like had I asked you if you denied God in favor of satan.

Here is a website you and others might wish to visit for further information:
More about Christian Beliefs: The Trinity
The Trinity

I answered your question in complete detail already. I notice however, that you gave no response to what I said. Read what I said, and if you have further questions after you have read what I said, you are welcome to ask.

Just one question. In your response, right above, that starts with "That sounds similar to modalist teachings.", you discuss "The trinitarian doctrine" of which I am very familiar with, but you still do not indicate that you personally believe Jesus to be One in The Holy Trinity. Do you see what I am asking? It is one thing to speak about what the "doctrine" says and another to answer the question as to your own personal belief. Or is it that you do not wish to commit yourself to the answer? Please understand that it is your own personal choice to do so.

[Tj3]

Just one question. In your response, right above, that starts with "That sounds similar to modalist teachings.", you discuss "The trinitarian doctrine" of which I am very familiar with, but you still do not indicate that you personally believe Jesus to be One in The Holy Trinity. Do you see what I am asking? It is one thing to speak about what the "doctrine" says and another to answer the question as to your own personal belief. Or is it that you do not wish to commit yourself to the answer? Please understand that it is your own personal choice to do so.

You really need to slow down and go back and read my messages, and the link that I gave to my article on this topic. I have been quite specific on that point a number of times. Indeed - read, slowly and in detail the very paragraph that I wrote, and to which you refer.

You, on the other hand, have not. Nor have you addressed what appear to be modalist teachings on your part.

[fancyT]

With all due respect, Chuck, you apparently are making reference to being a priest from the way you sign your name, I don't know if it is merely metaphorical or real, nevertheless, if you knew the Bible you would realize that when Jesus cried out in a loud voice "Lazarus Come Forth!" (JOHN 11:43 (KJV), He spoke (conversed) with Lazarus' spirit. If that isn't talking to the dead (after all, was Lazarus alive at that time?) where Lazarus obeyed by his spirit coming back into his body in response to Jesus' calling Him, then I don't know how it can come any closer.

And you, as the "pot" are one to talk trying to call the "kettle" black about having no idea of Biblical teachings when you can't even spell the word (look above) much less know what it stands for. It's truly sad, but we've been warned Catholics just don't study the Bible. End of my "converstation" with you. Now, I'll have to go as I am awaiting a response from Tj3 as I have something for him.

Im sorry Sky Gem but I agree with Chuck 100%. It is a huge stretch for you to justify people who communicate with the dead by quoting this incident in the Bible. Jesus was merely calling Laz from the dead (as Tj3 said) after God the father answered His prayer. It was not for the purpose of communicating with the dead but it was a comand to bring him back to life. Like I have said before there is no where in the Bible that tells us that dead people can communicate with people on earth. But people can summon evil spirits who can pose as dead family members.

[musynina]

For those having questions and wishing to know what the Catholic position is on communication with the deceased, please read the following information:

EVP and Vatican

If we ask our friends on earth to pray for us, why not ask our friends in heaven to do the same? Saints remind us of the belief that we are all called to holiness, to share life with God. Saints and angels inspire us to do just that. They are holy because they cooperated with the grace of God and they help us by encouraging us to respond as generously as they did.

[NeedKarma]

But people can summon evil spirits who can pose as dead family members.

Now THAT's a huge stretch of the imagination!

[fancyT]

Now THAT's a huge stretch of the imagination!

I am just merely stating what the Bible has to say on the subject.