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tomder55 · Dec 2, 2018, 12:49 PM

social security is an insurance policy ….not socialism. But since it is government managed ;it is mis-managed

Wondergirl · Dec 2, 2018, 01:09 PM

many non-essential aspects of the hospital's construction will drive up the price of medicine

Back to my hospital description ...those twelve meditation gardens are now overgrown and rarely used (I was told by medical staff) except as a shortcut to another hospital wing. When I was a patient, lying in bed and staring idly at the ceiling, I was URGED by medical staff to turn on my huge tv and get involved in a soap opera or game show. I said I hate watching TV and would prefer talking with a roommate. That was met with great disappointment. "Oh, no. We want you to get well. A sick roommate won't help." Sorry, but the best part of my times in hospitals has been interacting with a roommate. Meanwhile, there was constant buzzing, dinging, ringing, banging, chirping, door slamming, and loud talking (mostly from other patients' TVs). And I was supposed to get well????

I would have to look up my bill from those three days. I could have bought a fancy new car.

ADDED: $80,000-90,000 for only the hospital costs. I was anemic, received one transfusion in ER (where I hung out for ten hours "waiting for a room to be cleaned"), then two more transfusions in my hospital room.

jlisenbe · Dec 2, 2018, 01:47 PM

The same thing happens in higher education also .The costs of glitzy campuses gets passed on .

Yes indeed. Very true.

Or you could take the stigma from socialism and apply it as a good thing ..IE...Social Security. If you exam the socialism of our "enemies" it looks exactly like capitalism, but without social freedom.

1. Social security is not socialism. Not even close.
2. The socialism of anyone cannot look like capitalism. They are not similar.
3. The profits of the health care industry does not even come close to explaining the incredible growth of health care costs.

talaniman · Dec 2, 2018, 03:19 PM

Capitalism and communism and any other name you can come up with) share the same structure! A head that delegates the rest of the society. Every society on Earth shares the same social structure with only minute differences, and different names and titles, and level of sophistication. So logically every nation is suffering from rising costs. Now military spending is a huge difference. One could say nations have different PRIORITIES that their budgets reflect.

3. The profits of the health care industry does not even come close to explaining the incredible growth of health care costs.

Wrong, Costs have gone up for everybody, in all things. It's not just health care, as Tom explained very well.

jlisenbe · Dec 2, 2018, 05:03 PM

Capitalism and communism and any other name you can come up with) share the same structure! A head that delegates the rest of the society. Every society on Earth shares the same social structure with only minute differences, and different names and titles, and level of sophistication.

Go spend a year in communist China and then come back and tell us about those "minute differences". If you really believe that capitalism and communism share the same structure, then you plainly don't understand either one of them.

I say that the profits of the health care industry do not explain the rise of health care costs, and you counter by saying that's wrong because costs have gone up for everybody?? That is a strange, disconnected answer.

paraclete · Dec 2, 2018, 07:30 PM

Capitalism is predicated on exploiting the masses under the guise of freedom, communism is predicated on enslaving the masses under the guise of equality. In communism health costs are strictly controlled and don't suffer from the same exploitation obvious in the capitalist system, in capitalism health costs are allowed to escalate because the falacy of free market is in operation.

What you fail to see is that the health system can be regulated to provide fair outcomes for all, all you have to do is remove stupidity

talaniman · Dec 2, 2018, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by paraclete

Capitalism is predicated on exploiting the masses under the guise of freedom, communism is predicated on enslaving the masses under the guise of equality. In communism health costs are strictly controlled and don't suffer from the same exploitation obvious in the capitalist system, in capitalism health costs are allowed to escalate because the falacy of free market is in operation.

What you fail to see is that the health system can be regulated to provide fair outcomes for all, all you have to do is remove stupidity

… or GREED.

jlisenbe · Dec 2, 2018, 07:57 PM

What you fail to see is that the health system can be regulated to provide fair outcomes for all, all you have to do is remove stupidity.

I'm open to ideas. Explain how that would work. You might also explain how to stop the exploding costs of health care.

As to capitalism, it is the foundation behind the economic miracle which is the United States of America. Of course if we had tried good ole socialism, we could be on the level of Venezuela, Italy, Greece, or France.

paraclete · Dec 2, 2018, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I'm open to ideas. Explain how that would work. You might also explain how to stop the exploding costs of health care.

As to capitalism, it is the foundation behind the economic miracle which is the United States of America. Of course if we had tried good ole socialism, we could be on the level of Venezuela, Italy, Greece, or France.

You keep listening to propaganda but you can't help it you are brainwashed from birth. All systems suffer from exploitation, you are just blind to what is happening in your own backyard. Not all systems of socialism are bad but when greed takes over they degenerate. Venezuela failed because of nationalisation, Greece because of failure to raise revenue, Italy is still there but politically unstable, and the French are just stupid, but what has capitalism done for Russia? Communism has done something worthwhile for China recently after the worst excesses were thrown off. You think the US is an economic miracle, but you are living in the past century, there have been terrible excesses in the system, the GFC is just one example. The best system is a hybrid, proper regulation achieves wonders I live in a place where there have been 28 years of growth the budget has been balance more than once and soon will be again and yet we have fair taxation, health care and a dynamic economy

jlisenbe · Dec 3, 2018, 05:32 AM

1. Who propagandized me, especially from birth? My parents? Really??
2. Russia is not a capitalistic economy.
3. The economic growth in China is due to the government allowing the growth of private business.
4. "The budget has been balanced more than once and soon will be again." I hope you realize what a funny statement that is. It's the general equivalent of me telling my wife, "We've been spending more than we've been making for years, but I have good news. We are going to stop doing that in just a few more years!"
5. Most Americans admire what is being done in Australia. I am one of them, but bear in mind that you are about half the population of our largest state.
6. "all you have to do is remove stupidity." You still have not explained what you mean by that. I'm open to your ideas, but you need to explain.

paraclete · Dec 3, 2018, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

1. Who propagandized me, especially from birth? My parents? Really??

Yes followed by your education system

2. Russia is not a capitalistic economy.

Well it isn't a socialist economy

3. The economic growth in China is due to the government allowing the growth of private business.

China is closely controlled

4. "The budget has been balanced more than once and soon will be again." I hope you realize what a funny statement that is.

It is not funny it is policy and is being realised

5. Most Americans admire what is being done in Australia. I am one of them, but bear in mind that you are about half the population of our largest state.

Yes but I don't remember a state with a population of 50 million, but we manage an area the size of your nation, population isn't everything

6. "all you have to do is remove stupidity." You still have not explained what you mean by that. I'm open to your ideas, but you need to explain.

Stupidity is like madness, you keep doing the same thing and expecting change. You think one size or system fits all but your system has proven to let you down on more than one occasion and it is really the system of governance that has let you down

jlisenbe · Dec 3, 2018, 07:52 AM

Yes followed by your education system.

Completely, totally, 100% false accusation. You've lost all credibility with that statement. I say that since you have no earthly idea what my parents or my teachers taught me. None at all.

Stupidity is like madness, you keep doing the same thing and expecting change. You think one size or system fits all but your system has proven to let you down on more than one occasion and it is really the system of governance that has let you down.

I'm open to your ideas, but not to yet another generic, meaningless statement. Do you have anything specific? And when you say, "You think one size or system fits all," isn't that actually what YOU are saying? I'm actually all for trying a variety of things from one state to another and comparing results.

talaniman · Dec 3, 2018, 10:17 AM

Give us a break Clete, even though I think it's the dufus and his antics making us look bad, in all honesty we had a lot of work to do before he showed up, and all he has done in two years is clown and distract us from that work, while him and his sycophants steal the money, and get a free stay out of jail card, that's permanent, and good for more rape, pillage and plunder.

jlisenbe · Dec 3, 2018, 11:19 AM

Give us a break Clete, even though I think it's the dufus and his antics making us look bad, in all honesty we had a lot of work to do before he showed up, and all he has done in two years is clown and distract us from that work, while him and his sycophants steal the money, and get a free stay out of jail card, that's permanent, and good for more rape, pillage and plunder.

Ohh. You started so well, and then you veered off the highway of reason. Still, you are correct that we have a lot to do, and if you can find a single republican or democrat that seems to be serious about the problem and has some real answers, then I'd like to know about them. We have everything from Trump to Bernie Sanders. Not good.

paraclete · Dec 3, 2018, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

Give us a break Clete, even though I think it's the dufus and his antics making us look bad, in all honesty we had a lot of work to do before he showed up, and all he has done in two years is clown and distract us from that work, while him and his sycophants steal the money, and get a free stay out of jail card, that's permanent, and good for more rape, pillage and plunder.

Tal I'll give you a break when you give the rest of us a break, Trump is the manifestation of your society, reality mirroring art, but what did you have before him? Paradise? Only in your mind, only in your dreams

talaniman · Dec 3, 2018, 01:08 PM

You guys went from this to this

jlisenbe · Dec 3, 2018, 01:14 PM

Tal I'll give you a break when you give the rest of us a break, Trump is the manifestation of your society, reality mirroring art, but what did you have before him? Paradise? Only in your mind, only in your dreams.

It really worries me when I start to agree, even partially, with you guys. (<:

However, we are getting off topic. How to lower health care costs. I'd still love to know what is responsible for the incredible rise in costs over the past sixty years.

jlisenbe · Dec 3, 2018, 01:23 PM

Eight minute video which seemed to have a lot of good info. Not a conservative man by any means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M

paraclete · Dec 3, 2018, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

It really worries me when I start to agree, even partially, with you guys. (<:

However, we are getting off topic. How to lower health care costs. I'd still love to know what is responsible for the incredible rise in costs over the past sixty years.

Still in denial. Look, we solved the problem this way, amid howls of anguish and predictions of the end of life as we know it I might add. The government took over the provision of health care by regulating the price of medical services and implementing a single payer system which had a levy attached to it of 1.5% that all tax payers were required to meet. Doctors could remain outside the system and charge more and the patient would receive a rebate or they could just bill the government for the regulated fee. It has required some tweeking over time. At the same time the price of drugs were regulated amid screams from pharma. Services in public hospitals are free. There is a private system outside of this, expensive but insurable and the health funds are regulated. Today about 80% of doctors work within the system and prices have been held down because the government doesn't allow the prices to escalate

jlisenbe · Dec 3, 2018, 02:03 PM

Not sure how you get the "still in denial" remark, but at any rate I do hear what you are saying. It just makes me suspicious. "Why, we just hold down the price of health care." Ok, but if it's all just that simple, then why not do the same thing with food? Why not just say that milk producers can only sell milk for 2 dollars a gallon? That would be nice except that the supply of milk would be cut tremendously since you cannot sell milk at that price and stay in business. So I wonder if the same dynamic works with health care. It will be interesting to see how it all works out over the next decade.

The video I linked above said a person can get an MRI in Japan for 150 dollars, but in the U.S. it is a couple of thousand or whatever it was. That just strikes me as strange. How do you go from 1500 in the U.S. to 150 bucks in Japan? It just makes me wonder how they are doing that. Is the quality the same? Is the government subsidizing? What makes the difference of 90% in price?

What is the 1.5% levy? 1.5% of what?