[tomder55]

uh wrong. The demonstrations were against democratically elected Viktor Yanukovych.
Then there were elections in May that Poroshenko won . However ,most of the Donbass region was disenfranchised and could not vote.
You crack me up . On one posting you decry the rule of billionaire oligarchs and on this post you support it .

[paraclete]

He was elected by a clear majority, if Donbass was disenfranchised it was as the result of their own actions, polling stations were open where possible. What you seem to ignore is the balance of power shifted with the removal of Crimea. Putin shot himself in the foot with that one. I thought you like oligarcs after all your country is run by them and they fit right into right wing politics. Putin didn't like the decision of the people but then tyrants never like democracy particularly when the result goes against them.

We are now at the point where we see if american rhetoric matches their actions. Owbama is working very hard to get others to do the heavy lifting after being part of the problem he doesn't want to be part of the solution

[tomder55]

You are right that the emperor's minions largely incited the rebellion against Yanukovych .

I am not "right winged " except in the context of your flawed spectrum . I am an American conservative ,a movement founded in the ideas of the founders . Nothing in our system encourages rule by the oligarch .Oligarchs gained power through progressive statism.

[talaniman]

Conservatives pushed for tax cuts for the rich, and deregulation, wage stagnation, union busting, fight expansion of medicare, want cuts in poor people benefit, deny unemployment extension, and anything to help the middle class and poor American weather the storm of the financial crisis caused by Wall Street, who have recovered fully, and rake in money hand over fist, and you have the nerve to say its all the fault of progressives?

Okay you aren't a winger, but you are a free market capitalist with a very broken business model that's manipulated by oligarchs to extract all the wealth out of the economy. Conservative unfairness Tom, plain and simple. The founders would be appalled at the way conservatives have ruined their country, and blocked progress, growth, and prosperity for its people.

[tomder55]

all Elizabeth Warren need do is download some of your rants and she'll have a season full of stump speeches. The truth is that it is the statists policies of the progressives that caused and prolonged the financial crisis . It is policies to address YOUR image of fairness and their unintended consequences that is the cause of the nations ruin. The founders would be appalled at how the "left" has distorted the constitution and the governing model they constructed .

[talaniman]

Nice rant yourself Tom, but Romney already tried that one and lost. Your plot to diminish the government of the people and turn it over to private business will fail.

That's no rant, it's a prediction. If you holler like a winger, you might be a winger.

[cdad]

I agree with Tom. I have seen many times how progrssives have tried to yell and scream from both sides causing nothing but disolution for progress. You keep ranting how conservatives want to hurt the poor and yet progressives want to control the poor as personal slaves.

[paraclete]

I hear communist propaganda there dad, marxism has no place in a modern society. The conservatives want to exploit this is what they have always done, the progressives want to own the means of production

[talaniman]

Well for the sake of discussion we could stop the broad accusations and get specific, as I have outlined in my above so called "rant".

Conservatives pushed for tax cuts for the rich, and deregulation, wage stagnation, union busting, fight expansion of medicare, want cuts in poor people benefit, deny unemployment extension, and anything to help the middle class and poor American weather the storm of the financial crisis caused by Wall Street, who have recovered fully, and rake in money hand over fist,

Just pick any topic and lets get it on. I'll start, living wages in light of the moving of former middle class jobs overseas. Or a 10 year infrastructure plan that creates skilled jobs, and fixes stuff that's been broken and neglected.

[tomder55]

don't have to debate any of your domestic points. Your embrace of the ultimate oligarch ,turned state ruler in a rigged election ,the corrupt Petro Poroshenko ,makes my case .

[talaniman]

I haven't embraced anyone Tom, just criticized Putin for his actions. You have me confused with someone else, and that explains a lot.

[tomder55]

see that's the problem ,a myopic view that doesn't take into account the actions of Kiev . Go look at the pictures of Luhansk and Donetsk . You made a big to do about Israeli precision attacks in Gaza against an enemy that was attacking them ,but say nothing about Ukraine's indiscriminant attacks on it's own ethnic Russians .

[paraclete]

You completely ignore the obvious Tom, there is a civil war being waged by seperatists aided by Russia. Here we have a people who rebell when the political decisions go against them because they think they would be better off with Russia. What would happen if Oregon rebelled and said they would be better off with Canada because they don't like Obama and Canada sent forces into Washington state to support them.

Someone stated a shooting war and there are consequences of using heavy weapons

[talaniman]

This is but ONE of many conflicts going on in the world.

[paraclete]

Yes and Putin has taken advantage of the distraction, while the world moves to deal with ISIS, he invades Ukraine. The seperatists would not have been so bold had they not had Russian support

[tomder55]

Someone stated a shooting war and there are consequences of using heavy weapons

indeed ;Kiev started using the heavy weapons against civilians .You also conveniently ignore that neo-Nazi militias were at the forefront of the Kiev coup that ousted the elected President Viktor Yanukovych.

[tomder55]

This is but ONE of many conflicts going on in the world.

yes .you will recall how Putin pulled the emperor's feet out of the fire when he was at the verge of bombing Assad in support of ISIS when he foolishly put his foot in his mouth about a red line crossed.
The fact that the emperor was completely wrong about which side used chemical weapons gets ignored by the cheerleaders of the regime .
U.N. has testimony that Syrian rebels used sarin gas: investigator | Reuters

[paraclete]

indeed ;Kiev started using the heavy weapons against civilians .You also conveniently ignore that neo-Nazi militias were at the forefront of the Kiev coup that ousted the elected President Viktor Yanukovych.

So it all comes down to nazi fighting communists, sort of reflects the conflict you find in your own society, but the difference here is the conflict of freedom and oppression and that is a two edged sword, subject to which side you are on. You need to change the lens to a different colour

[tomder55]

So it all comes down to nazi fighting communists, sort of reflects the conflict you find in your own society, but the difference here is the conflict of freedom and oppression and that is a two edged sword, subject to which side you are on. You need to change the lens to a diffent colour

the conflict really comes down to Yanukovych rejecting an EU proposal when Moscow made a better offer.
That's when the west orchestrated the coup against the elected government in Ukraine .

[talaniman]

Regional feudalism still in the 21st century, and it still comes down to the strongest military.