[Athos]

Athos,
I read about such folks in Astronomy magazine and the book "Exploring Reality" by John Polkinghorne that goes into that subject. "The intertwining of Science and Religion".
What is interesting is that he is a physicist who was so convinced that he became an Anglican priest.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Teilhard de Chardin came to a similar conclusion. There are many ways to approach ultimate truth.

[Athos]

If that's what you need to get through the day, feel free to believe it.



Your repeated emphasis on the idea that it's all a matter of faith because history can't give you your precious "absolute proof" carries the clear implication that you have something those with "faith" don't. Whether you mean it that way or not is irrelevant, the connotation is there.



So, because I ask you to address what I actually wrote rather than taking a snippet out of context in order to "win," that's getting emotional. Whatever.



This is the guy who calls me "condescending" and "emotional." If that's not condescending, there's no such thing, and it's obviously an emotional outburst. Pot and kettle, my friend. Feel free to have the last word.

Ok, I'll take the last word - thanks.

I'm truly sorry for upsetting you. That was never my intention. I respect your belief. I even have beliefs of my own that lack proof or evidence. When I offer them, I say as much and never claim they are "true" in any sense other than my own believing.

When people say, "You can't prove that", I agree, tip my hat, and go on my way. But my beliefs remain my beliefs.

[ScottGem]

This really gets tiring.

Yes this really is getting tiresome. I tend to be very precise in my use of the language. The fact is, a fact you have agreed with, is that there is great difficulty in providing absolute proof in historical records. The older the record the greater the difficulty to the point that it becomes impossible. So we agree on that point.

Where we continue to disagree is your statement that historical study requires a different set of rules. Historical study has to contend with this fact, but that doesn't mean there are different rules. It means the historian has to couch his comments by saying," I believe..." or "the evidence shows ME that..." or similar qualifications. That is the point I was making to the OP. One cannot "know" something that is a matter of opinion not fact.

For you to continue to claim that the above point has not been verified by your own words, is ridiculous. You are setting up your own rules for discussion, just as I did. But since I opened that part of the discussion, you have to deal with the rules I established.

[dwashbur]

The question came to my mind after reading an email from my friend who is non-Christian. In the email he said that people were going to heaven even before Christ came on this earth. I know that there is no way we can go to heaven except through Jesus. I do not doubt it. Just curious to know that others who were not in the group of Isreal, how was Lord God bringing them to HIM like HE is doing now through Jesus.

Triund,
Before Moses, it was a matter of faith. Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. Joseph trusted God and was used to rescue his family from a famine and establish them in a place where they could grow into a nation. As for people who weren't part of Israel, look no further than Ruth. When decision time came, she chose to go with Naomi and follow Naomi's God. That trust earned her a place as one of three women mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus. Rahab is another good example; she realized the God of Israel was the one to follow and acted on her belief by hiding Joshua's spies and helping them escape.

When Moses brought the law down from Sinai and they built the tabernacle - and later the temple in Jerusalem - numerous sacrifices and rites were established. We now know, looking back from the New Testament, that those sacrifices etc. were looking ahead to the Ultimate sacrifice in Jesus himself. When someone trusted in the sacrifice that God had ordained to provide forgiveness for their sins, it was an act of faith and they were in fact forgiven, based on the Sacrifice that was to come. Again, we can only know this in retrospect, but the best we can gather, that's how it worked. Getting right with God and hence going to heaven at death has always been a matter of faith. The faith needed has always been based on the amount of revelation God has given people up to that time.

An excellent question!

[classyT]

[QUOTE=I Newton;2337632]Hi Triund

If you want to go by the Bible, Jesus specifically said that no man has gone to heaven. You can quibble about word meanings etc, but that is what he said.

Please provide the actual scripture to back up your claim where Jesus specifically said that.

The only scriptures we have that may confuse us is ones that say that some men were taken up into the heavens, which of course could mean into the heavens where birds fly so as to provide a means of escape for them so they would not die at that moment.

If you are confused about what the scriptures say it is because you don't understand how to rightly divide the word of truth. My Bible says this:

1Corithinans 2:14 For God is not the author of confusion

The other scripture has us considering a vision of Moses and Elijah with Jesus. You can believe that this vision contradicts Jesus word that no man has gone to heaven before him or you can believe that no man DID go to heaven before Jesus.

HUH? Scripture please... back it up. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. I really need the scripture you are referring to where Jesus said no one has gone to heaven before him. BACK up your statements please.

Jesus even spoke of John the Baptist being the greatest man on earth but even the lowest in heaven is greater than John. (John was dead at this time, so if you want to think that men went to heaven before Jesus, you would have to believe that John was not one of them

HUH?

Then of course, if people did go to heaven before Jesus came to earth, then there was nothing that had to be saved.

?

Lazerus did not go to heaven, he was to remain in the ground until the last day when all from the tombs would hear Jesus voice and come out of the tombs.

Jesus death gave us salvation, gave us forgiveness so we could go to heaven.

Those who did not hear the word, but had good hearts would have been taken to heaven when Jesus opened the way.

Everyone had the chance to be forgiven and later go to heaven, but the Jews were chosen as God's special people; to stand out from the rest. They had God's teachings and guidance and so they also had great responsibility to do as he said.

The other nations did not have such responsibility; hence they were left to fend for themselves.

But they too were accepted into heaven when Jesus cleansed the sins of everyone; not just the Jews, not just Catholics, not just Protestants.

God is not partial, anyone can be a Jew. But if you take on the role of a Jew, you must also live up to his standards; that is the responsibility the modern day 'Jew' has to face.

What in the WORLD are you talking about. You aren't backing anything up with scripture. I don't know what you mean about Lazarus remained dead in the ground and the tomb... huh? What?

I Newton, please back up the things you say with scripture. I don't understand what you are saying but it sure isn't from the Bible.

[ScottGem]

We now know, ...

Wrong! You should have said; some (even many) now BELIEVE...

we can only know this in retrospect, but the best we can gather, that's how it worked.

Again wrong! You should have said: Christians believe this in retrospect, based on the writings in the New Testament that's how it worked.

Getting right with God and hence going to heaven at death has always been a matter of faith. The faith needed has always been based on the amount of revelation God has given people up to that time.

Now that is right on!

[classyT]

Truind,

From what I can see in scripture before the death and resurrection of Christ all of the people who had faith in God were covered because of their faith. They went to a place called "paradise". That is what the Lord Jesus called it on the cross when he told the thief beside him... "today thou shalt be with me in paradise' see Luke 23:43

The Lord Jesus also told us this:

Luke 16:22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, He ( the rich man) went to hell, where he was constantly tortured. As he looked up, in the distance he saw Abraham and Lazarus ( the poor man)24 He yelled, 'Father Abraham! Have mercy on me! Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water to cool off my tongue. I am suffering in this fire.'"Abraham replied, 'Remember, my child, that you had a life filled with good times, while Lazarus' life was filled with misery. Now he has peace here, while you suffer.Besides, a wide area separates us. People couldn't cross it in either direction even if they wanted to.]

I believe this is a picture of where the people who had died before the resurrection of Christ went. One side was paradise, the other side was a place of torment and they couldn't cross over.

Check out what Samuel said to Saul when he had a witch bring Samuel back after he had physcially died:
1 Samuel 28:15
Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?" Samuel asked Saul. ( samuel was obviously alive spirtually speaking and didn't appreciate the disturbance.)

Jesus also told the Jews when they were questioning about ressurection this :

Mark 12:26Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken.

Also David after he lost his first baby with Bathseheba said this:

But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." 2 Samuel 12:23 So this baby went somewhere and David knew he'd be there with him someday...

So, Check it out. Jesus tells the thief beside him on the cross that he would be with him that very day in Paradise. ( That was before the resurrection of Christ)

The Lord Jesus tells us that God is the God of the Living.. not the dead. So where were these people who had faith and died before the resurrection??

Well according to the Lord Jesus: a place called paradise. These men and women of faith were waiting for the Lord to die and rise again so they could be taken to God the Father. Which is where anyone now who has faith in Christ Jesus goes... according to the N.T.scriptures. The Apsotle Paul puts it this way for believers in Christ... to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corthians 5:8

[Triund]

I'm sorry, but I have a MAJOR problem with that statement. If you want to say "I believe..." or "I have complete faith..." or "I have no doubt..." you will get no argument from me. But when you claim to "know" something that there is no absolute proof of I have to object. Especially when what you claim to know goes against what I and many others believe, I have to object.

Frankly, I don't believe in a heavenly paradise. But if one does exist, I strongly believe that it is not restricted to people who worship a certain way. I believe, as long as one follows what is often called the Judeo-Christian ethic, the Ten Commandments, the Golden Rule, etc. In other words, as long as one lives a good and moral life, then they will be admitted.

With all due regards, I want to let you know that I fully understand the words know, faith and belief. The base of usage of word "know" is rooted in the Bible. I do not know what is Jesus to you. But for me HE other than HIS other attributes, is very strong and the most talked about historical figure too. And if you do not recognise Jesus' historical attribute on this earth, then I do not think I should go further on explaining why I used "know".

I do not know what are your beliefs and faiths but I never try to be disrespectful to anybody. You can check my posts on this site. You enjoy your beliefs and I very satisfied with mine. God be with you.

[dwashbur]

Please provide the actual scripture to back up your claim where Jesus specifically said that.

Classy (and you do live up to your name!),
He's referring to John 3:13. Of course, as usual, he's ripping it totally out of context and wresting it to his own destruction, but that's the verse he's talking about.

[classyT]

Classy (and you do live up to your name!),
He's referring to John 3:13. Of course, as usual, he's ripping it totally out of context and wresting it to his own destruction, but that's the verse he's talking about.

AHHHH OK... gotcha now. Laughing at the picture you just painted ripping and wrestling... too funny. Ha ha. Thanks!

[classyT]

Truind,

I am so sorry. I didn't answer your question because I misread it. I thought you were asking if people actually went to heaven.. or where they went... duh. Sometimes I am goofy at best.

Actually, it is a good question. For the most part God was dealing with the children of Israel. But we see all through the OT Gentiles who had faith in God too. Check out Rahab.. she was a harlot and then there is Ruth. By the time the Lord got through with Old King Nebby in Daniel, I believe HE had faith in God. Gentiles had to get there the same way as the Jews... by faith.

[Triund]

Scott and Athos, are you both language teachers? Folks, thank you for giving some language tips. ;) It is never my intention to win an argument or hurt any body's beliefs.

I am not learned and not an expert in the Christianity and the Bible. I am learning and pretty satisfied with my journey. Just wish me luck that I could grow stronger in my faith. I am fully aware that the path I am walking on is totally faith based and I am walking by having faith on Lord Jesus. HE does not talk to me, HE does not give me everyday directions and does not tell me how to handle a crucial situation. But I know HE is there. Sorry, buddies, no proof again. :o In this walk there isn't any empirical data to lead the way because it is not CSI. The Bible is still the highest selling book with millions copies being sold every year. Billions have already been sold. That's why I know what Jesus said is true. Even if you want to call it blind faith, I would accept. At least, I would have a chance for Jesus to work on me and open my eyes. On the flip side, let's take for argument sake, if billions of people are going to doom because they read wrong book, then I will have big company in hell, I won't be alone. God be with you

[Triund]

Thanks to Dave and ClassyT who helped me to understand how God was saving people before HE gave us the name of Jesus. The Old Testament tells us about the people who knew God and whom God knew. The mention of people in the Bible start from Adam and Eve and then moves on to Cain and Able and then their descents and so on. It does not talk about other children of Adam and Eve. Therefore, I understand that there is another stream of people who are not in the frame of the Bible. There is mention of these people in the Bible though.

This question came to my mind because, I know people who have come to Christian fold from other religions. Some of them tell their stories of having an encounter with Jesus. Many of them were hardcore against Christians and Christ. And now their faith on Lord Jesus is much stronger than some of the old Christians. Hence I was wondering that was Lord God personally talking to those who were in the other stream or was HE sending Jesus as Angel to them? Because pre-destination thing did not originate in New Testament. Or was it that God was only taking care of HIS Chosen Ones and later HE sent Jesus to save Gentiles too?

[TUT317]

Hi All.

I don't wish to have the last word over Triund but perhaps we could sum up the disagreements in this way:

It is a matter of fact that Jesus said certain things in the Bible. Either he did or he didn't. If he did then we can ask the question. 'is what he said true or false? If it is false then our faith is misplaced. If it is true then our faith will be rewarded.

If Jesus didn't say these words then it is a matter of fact that someone or some people put these words into his mouth. The truth value of the words is not depended on who said them. In other words, the statement that no one can go to the Father except through Jesus will turn out to be true of false regardless of who said them.


Tut

[ScottGem]

With all due regards, I want to let you know that I fully understand the words know, faith and belief. The base of usage of word "know" is rooted in the Bible. I do not know what is Jesus to you. But for me HE other than HIS other attributes, is very strong and the most talked about historical figure too. And if you do not recognise Jesus' historical attribute on this earth, then I do not think I should go further on explaining why I used "know".

I do not know what are your beliefs and faiths but I never try to be disrespectful to anybody. You can check my posts on this site. You enjoy your beliefs and I very satisfied with mine. God be with you.

First, I don't think you have been disrectful at all.

Second, The only biblical use of the word know that I am aware refers to sexual intimacy.

Yes, I do recognize Jesus' "historicall attributes". Clearly he was one of the most, if not the most, influential person in history. But "know" something, is to be able to prove it. And the fact is there is not absolute proof for you to say that you "know". Again, you can qualify this by saying you believe or even you "know in your heart" or some other such qualifier. But when you say you "know" something that can't be proven you are denying the beliefs of others who do not believe as you do.

Scott and Athos, are you both language teachers? Folks, thankyou for giving some language tips. ;) It is never my intention to win an arguement or hurt any body's beliefs.

I am not learned and not an expert in the Christianity and the Bible. I am learning and pretty satisfied with my journey. Just wish me luck that I could grow stronger in my faith. I am fully aware that the path I am walking on is totally faith based and I am walking by having faith on Lord Jesus. HE does not talk to me, HE does not give me everyday directions and does not tell me how to handle a crucial situation. But I know HE is there. Sorry, buddies, no proof again. :o In this walk there isn't any empirical data to lead the way because it is not CSI. The Bible is still the highest selling book with millions copies being sold every year. Billions have already been sold. That's why I know what Jesus said is true. Even if you want to call it blind faith, I would accept. At least, I would have a chance for Jesus to work on me and open my eyes. On the flip side, let's take for arguement sake, if billions of people are going to doom because they read wrong book, then I will have big company in hell, I won't be alone. God be with you

I am very happy that you have found faith and that you are comforted by that faith. But don't tell me that you can know something that there is no absolute proof of. I cannot accept that. Besides which it challenges my beliefs and the beliefs of millions of others.

[dwashbur]

Scott and Athos, are you both language teachers? Folks, thankyou for giving some language tips. ;) It is never my intention to win an arguement or hurt any body's beliefs.

I am not learned and not an expert in the Christianity and the Bible. I am learning and pretty satisfied with my journey. Just wish me luck that I could grow stronger in my faith. I am fully aware that the path I am walking on is totally faith based and I am walking by having faith on Lord Jesus. HE does not talk to me, HE does not give me everyday directions and does not tell me how to handle a crucial situation. But I know HE is there. Sorry, buddies, no proof again. :o In this walk there isn't any empirical data to lead the way because it is not CSI. The Bible is still the highest selling book with millions copies being sold every year. Billions have already been sold. That's why I know what Jesus said is true. Even if you want to call it blind faith, I would accept. At least, I would have a chance for Jesus to work on me and open my eyes. On the flip side, let's take for arguement sake, if billions of people are going to doom because they read wrong book, then I will have big company in hell, I won't be alone. God be with you

I couldn't agree more. Philosophical hair-splitting over words aside, I know as well. I've had my crisis of faith and emerged stronger out the other side, by God's grace. The New Testament tells us repeatedly that we CAN know that Jesus is Lord, that we CAN know that we have life in his name, that we CAN know we belong to him, and so on and so on and so on. There are those who redefine the word "know" according to certain philosophical assumptions, then try to shove their definition at us. The funny part about that is, there's no way to verify empirically that their definition is the right one!

I admire your strength, Triund. I think we can both say with Paul,

I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day. (2 Ti 1:12)

It ain't always easy to hang on, but that's why certainty is so important.

[ScottGem]

classyT agrees : I agree with you ! We are on a Christian forum... why do we need to clarify something we have settled in our hearts as the absolute truth?

This is a forum to discuss Christianity. It is not a forum of, for and by Christians. This is true of all the religious forums on this site. You do not need to clarify what you have believe, but you can not parade your beliefs as absolute truth, when there are others who are just as entitled to their beliefs.

I don't claim to know that Jesus wasn't who he allegedly claimed he was or whether what he is attributed as saying is not the truth. This is because there is no absolute evidence to support either argument. My problem is when someone claims to know a fact for which there is no absolute proof.

[ScottGem]

The funny part about that is, there's no way to verify empirically that their definition is the right one!

I agree, just as there is no way to verify empirically that yours is the right one. Which is why its not correct to state something as a fact, that can't be proven.

[dwashbur]

I agree, just as there is no way to verify empirically that yours is the right one. Which is why its not correct to state something as a fact, that can't be proven.

[dwashbur]

Thanks to Dave and ClassyT who helped me to understand how God was saving people before HE gave us the name of Jesus. The Old Testament tells us about the people who knew God and whom God knew. The mention of people in the Bible start from Adam and Eve and then moves on to Cain and Able and then their descents and so on. It does not talk about other children of Adam and Eve. Therefore, I understand that there is another stream of people who are not in the frame of the Bible. There is mention of these people in the Bible though.

This question came to my mind because, I know people who have come to Christian fold from other religions. Some of them tell their stories of having an encounter with Jesus. Many of them were hardcore against Christians and Christ. And now their faith on Lord Jesus is much stronger than some of the old Christians. Hence I was wondering that was Lord God personally talking to those who were in the other stream or was HE sending Jesus as Angel to them? Because pre-destination thing did not originate in New Testament. Or was it that God was only taking care of HIS Chosen Ones and later HE sent Jesus to save Gentiles too?

I'm glad we could help. Could you expand on this last part a bit? I'm especially interested in what they meant by "an encounter with Jesus."