[tomder55]

So when Clintoon was President he was lied to about Saddam's WMDs... as was the UN ,and every other nation on earth. But... when GW Bush became President he was the one lying .

Was he also the one lying to Clintoon and the UN ?

[Kitkat22]

so when Clintoon was President he was lied to about Saddam's WMDs ...as was the UN ,and every other nation on earth. But ...when GW Bush became President he was the one lying .

Was he also the one lying to Clintoon and the UN ?

Yes!

[excon]

so when Clintoon was President he was lied to about Saddam's WMDs ...

Hello again, tom:

Yeah, that Clintoon... He and George believed the same thing... But, hold on there, podner. Clintoon DIDN'T START a war over it, did he?? BIG DIFFERENCE.

excon

[Kitkat22]

Hello again, tom:

Yeah, that Clintoon.... He and George believed the same thing... But, hold on there, podner. Clintoon DIDN'T START a war over it, did he??? BIG DIFFERENCE.

excon

Don't forget what his reasons for going into Iraq! The big liar said there were WMD. Everybody thinks Kennedy was the President who first sent soldiers to Vietnam. WRONG.. Eisenhower sent the first as "peace ambassadors" Kennedy did send in the first combat troops and LBJ kept sending them. Nixon withdrew troops after the fiasco at Kent State.

[tomder55]

Ex ,
Clintoon never stopped waging war against Saddam. Oh wait... you think enforcing no-fly zones ,blockades and sanction regimes... that firing on Iraqi troops from the sky and unleashing hundreds of Tomahawk missiles on Baghdad from submarine and air assets ,and on other strategic targets in Iraq wasn't waging war. I understand..

The truth is that ,much like in Korea , a cease fire doesn't end a war. The truth is that we never stopped being at war against Saddam Hussein after Desert Storm concluded neatly after 100 hours.

Kit

Your history fails to mention the role Truman played .Truman sent the Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) to Indochina March 1950.He just claimed they were not sent as combat troops.
The French were doing the bulk of the fighting ,but US "advisors" and substantial funding went into the effort as well. The Vietnam war was a hot spot in the Cold war that was a continuation of US policy that 5 US President's signed onto.The US involvement in the war lasted 25 years (for those who would have you believe that Afghanistan is soon to become America's longest war .)

[Kitkat22]

Tom.. after 9/11, Afghanistan was the objective. Osama Bin Laden was the objective. Had Bush done what he said he was going to do and focus on Osama, where do you think we would be right now as far as our young men and women who are there?

He wanted Saddam and he was going to get him at all cost. It wasn't his children fighting and dying but he didn't care.

If Osama Bin Laden is still alive which I doubt why are we still there? Why does my child have three tours of duty already under his belt and will go back.

You're very educated! What should Obama do. Drop the mohab bomb? Bring back the draft? Those countries have fought since time began.

What's your solution?

[tomder55]

Tom.. after 9/11, Afghanistan was the objective. Osama Bin Laden was the objective. Had Bush done what he said he was going to do and focus on Osama, where do you think we would be right now as far as our young men and women who are there?

So you agree with the President then that this is the necessary war to wage. We are in agreement.
The trouble is that President Obama never really believed it. What Excon identified is what typically happens when an outsider who uses over the top flaming rhetoric suddenly finds themselves as an insider. I told Excon before Obama was sworn in that he would conduct foreign policy pretty much as all his predecessors had... just as Kennedy /Johnson continued the policies of Truman and Ike during the Cold War (of which Vietnam was but one theater) .

The same is true of what I call the war against jihadistan (I don't like the terms used like war on terrorism... that doesn't identify the enemy) . Afghanistan ,Iraq ,Somalia,Yemen and many other places known and unknown to the public are theaters of operation . Some are more crucial than others but all need to be engaged .

I am willing to conceed that in retrospect there wasn't enough attention paid to Afghanistan after AQ and the Taliban were driven out . But I will not concede that Iraq was never part of the war against jihadistan . As I already commented . We never stopped being at war against Iraq.
If you want to place blame as to why the Iraq theater became a priority then place it where it belongs. The UN had a sanction regime against Saddam because he wasn't cooperating with the UN about the status of hisWMD. This included things like embargoes on the sale of Iraqi oil . However ; they put a provision in their sanctions that Saddam could sell some of it if it in turn went to feeding and providing medicine for children.
Well he was selling that oil and keeping the money . Not only that ,but he bribed key top members of the UN and various nations (most of whom led the opposition to the renewal of the war) to violate the provisions of the sanctions .

The UN was counting on the US and Britain to enforce their sanctions while at the same time it was violating the provisions of the sanctions itself.

This led to a weakening of the sanction program that the US military was enforcing (including the many times I stated above where weapons were used in response) ,and it threatened to completely collapse.

Internal documents that were retrieved from Iraq demonstrate that if Saddam did not have actual munitions of WMD ,he retained the infrastructure and capablility to swiftly reconstitute his WMD program . The reason that we did not find the stockpile we expected was because the delay in securing the necessary sanctions to reinitiate the war gave Saddam the time to move his weapons out of the country.

If Osama Bin Laden is still alive which I doubt why are we still there? Why does my child have three tours of duty already under his belt and will go back.

You're very educated! What should Obama do. Drop the mohab bomb? Bring back the draft? Those countries have fought since time began.

What's your solution?

I don't know if OBL is alive or dead .His organization is still a reality . The reason we are still there is to prevent AQ from establishing a base of operations in a nation acting as a state sponsor.
I don't know how your son feels about the war . But he is a volunteer . There is no draft ,and I don't think anyone wants one.. the military certainly doesn't .

I think the President has done the right things in recent days in changing leadership in the theater and at CENTCOM yesterday. I think he needs to change ambassadors and bring Ryan Crocker over to Afghanistan. I think he has to scap the public commitment to a set date of withdrawal . That is self defeating . The people inclinded to cooperate there will not do so if they think we aren't committed .
No ,I don't think dropping bigger bombs works . But the COIN doctrine needs more time than the President is allowing .

[excon]

But I will not concede that Iraq was never part of the war against jihadistan .

I think he has to scap the public committment to a set date of withdrawal . That is self defeating . The people inclinded to cooperate there will not do so if they think we aren't committed .

Hello again, tom:

Couple things.

Saddam was NOT a terrorist, and did NOT support Bin Laden.

In terms of the withdrawal date, I don't disagree with you - in part. It DOES let the enemy know that all they have to do is wait... AND, if that's ALL that happens before we split, then you are correct... It's self defeating

But, having a withdrawal date ALSO let's our FRIENDS know that they have to step up to the plate by X date, because they're going to be on their own after that... If they don't step up, after we've been there THIS long, it ain't NEVER going to happen. Staying there AFTER they've PROVEN they're not going to step up, means that we'll be there FOREVER. And, we ain't going to DO that. So, if we follow that strategy, it's not self defeating at all. It's a WINNER.

excon

[spitvenom]

I think he reads Everyone Poops by Taro Gomi.

[tomder55]

Ex I don't disagree with that either. But it is a mistake to make the date public. You can squeeze Karzai all you want to behind the scenes.

But a better strategy would've been to not endorse the results of the stolen elections there last year. That sent a signal that Karzai is a puppet (which he is not... far from it). Any sober observer realizes that Foreign Minister Abdullah Abdullah was the winner.

[Kitkat22]

I think he reads Everyone Poops by Taro Gomi.

My son serves proudly and he doesn't talk to me about it.. he talks to his dad if he talks about it at all. But yes he knows we have to stay until it's proven the people can take care of themselves. I don't think anyone understands how anybody can align themselves with a president who had one thing in mind after 9/11.. to get Saddam.


The millions of dollars they found in Iraq what happened to hit? Do you think maybe Cheney had a hand in seeing it "got back to the Iraqi people"? No way.. No one knows where it is.

[Kitkat22]

Hey you all... I'm sorry about making waves. I'm unsubscribing now. Hope you all are not upset with me. Just had to vent a little... Kit

[tomder55]

Hope you all are not upset with me. Just had to vent a little... Kit

Not at all . Enjoy the debate/discussion. Don't be a stranger .

[Kitkat22]

Not at all . Enjoy the debate/discussion. Don't be a stranger .

Thanks Tom, Exy, speechless, Nk and all of you. I just like to argue sometimes.:D

[speechlesstx]

Thanks Tom, Exy, speechless, Nk and all of you. I just like to argue sometimes.:D

So do we, jump right on in any time.

[Kitkat22]

So do we, jump right on in any time.

Yep... Bring it on:D

[smoothy]

The current president keeps THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO by Karl Marx at arms reach at all times.

[Catsmine]

Thanks Tom, Exy, speechless, Nk and all of you. I just like to argue sometimes.:D

Ooooh, looky, fresh meat! Just saying...