[tomder55]

I don't know about that... Sarah Palin said that her family trekked down to White Horse for free treatment of her brother's burnt foot.

I had to do some research to find out what you were talking about.

What Palin was referring to was when her parents went across the border for care in the 1960s .
The problem with the left seizing on this statement is that the Yukon Territory did not become part of the Canadian socialized system until 1972.

Also even today Americans crossing the border for any type of medical care are not eligible to partake in the government run program. They still have to pay a fee ,and I'm sure the Heath family also did... it was not free.

Did Palin as an adult cross the border to get care for herself or her family as a Canadian Minister recently did ? Nope.

[speechlesstx]

Democratic pollsters Patrick H. Caddell and Douglas E. Schoen have warned the Dems on their delusion over health care reform:

Bluntly put, this is the political reality:

First, the battle for public opinion has been lost. Comprehensive health care has been lost. If it fails, as appears possible, Democrats will face the brunt of the electorate's reaction. If it passes, however, Democrats will face a far greater calamitous reaction at the polls. Wishing, praying or pretending will not change these outcomes.

Nothing has been more disconcerting than to watch Democratic politicians and their media supporters deceive themselves into believing that the public favors the Democrats' current health-care plan. Yes, most Americans believe, as we do, that real health-care reform is needed. And yes, certain proposals in the plan are supported by the public.

However, a solid majority of Americans opposes the massive health-reform plan. Four-fifths of those who oppose the plan strongly oppose it, according to Rasmussen polling this week, while only half of those who support the plan do so strongly. Many more Americans believe the legislation will worsen their health care, cost them more personally and add significantly to the national deficit. Never in our experience as pollsters can we recall such self-deluding misconstruction of survey data.

The White House document released Thursday arguing that reform is becoming more popular is in large part fighting the last war. This isn't 1994; it's 2010. And the bottom line is that the American public is overwhelmingly against this bill in its totality even if they like some of its parts.

The notion that once enactment is forced, the public will suddenly embrace health-care reform could not be further from the truth -- and is likely to become a rallying cry for disaffected Republicans, independents and, yes, Democrats.

Second, the country is moving away from big government, with distrust growing more generally toward the role of government in our lives. Scott Rasmussen asked last month whose decisions people feared more in health care: that of the federal government or of insurance companies. By 51 percent to 39 percent, respondents feared the decisions of federal government more. This is astounding given the generally negative perception of insurance companies.

CNN found last month that 56 percent of Americans believe that the government has become so powerful it constitutes an immediate threat to the freedom and rights of citizens. When only 21 percent of Americans say that Washington operates with the consent of the governed, as was also reported last month, we face an alarming crisis.

Health care is no longer a debate about the merits of specific initiatives. Since the spectacle of Christmas dealmaking to ensure passage of the Senate bill, the issue, in voters' minds, has become less about health care than about the government and a political majority that will neither hear nor heed the will of the people.

Voters are hardly enthralled with the GOP, but the Democrats are pursuing policies that are out of step with the way ordinary Americans think and feel about politics and government. Barring some change of approach, they will be punished severely at the polls.

Once again, after watching the events of this week in the push to ram health care reform down our throats, I am speechless.

How do you answer a mindset that says, "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it," as Pelosi said this week?

[excon]

Once again, after watching the events of this week in the push to ram health care reform down our throats, I am speechless.

How do you answer a mindset that says, "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it," as Pelosi said this week?

Hello again, Steve:

Once again, you prove my point about the Republican talking points. "Ram it down our throats" is a good one.

Funny. You didn't say anything about RAMMING the Bush tax cuts down our throats, but the Republican dominated congress used the Same procedure.

Now, I don't know what's IN the bill, because the bill hasn't been written yet. But, to try to fix something that is plainly broken isn't delusional. Pretending the status quo is just fine is what's delusional.

excon

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

Once again, you prove my point about the Republican talking points. "Ram it down our throats" is a good one.

Um, I was using that before it was any "talking point," it was an easily discernible reality.

Funny. You didn't say anything about RAMMING the Bush tax cuts down our throats, but the Republican dominated congress used the Same procedure.

Do you really want to compare a tax cut that's set to expire with this huge, permanent government power grab?

Now, I don't know what's IN the bill, because the bill hasn't been written yet. But, to try to fix something that is plainly broken isn't delusional. Pretending the status quo is just fine is what's delusional.

Did you read the column? Have you listened to us at all? Or are you, like these Dems, just wishing the facts would go away or pretending they don't exist? Everyone agrees there needs to be changes, pretending we don't is delusional. Blind faith in a bill is even more delusional.

[excon]

Do you really want to compare a tax cut that's set to expire with this huge, permanent government power grab?Did you read the column? Have you listened to us at all? Or are you, like these Dems, just wishing the facts would go away or pretending they don't exist? Everyone agrees there needs to be changes, pretending we don't is delusional. Blind faith in a bill is even more delusional.

Hello again, Steve:

Yes, I read what Republicans say. I listen too. I just don't BELIEVE it. Why is that?? Because I'm actually rather intelligent, I can read, and I understand politics. You know what else I don't believe?? I don't believe that Republicans think changes need to be made to our health care. I haven't seen ANY indication of that. That would be NONE - ZIPPO - NADA. All I've seen is obstruction - absolute lockstep obstruction. I don't know where you think I've been. We've been talking about this for over a year. I've HEARD every one of you say countless times that our health care is the BEST IN THE WORLD - that EVERYBODY is NOW covered, and that insurance companies are your BEST FRIENDS. That doesn't sound like you think something is wrong.

Please understand that I don't have "blind" faith in a bill that hasn't been written yet, or faith that Democrats can pass a good bill. So, my argument isn't in support of "the bill". The bill itself may be crap - probably is. At best it's insurance reform. But, it's NOT a permanent government power grab - not even close. That's another talking point.

So, when you throw those talking points up around here, you're not going to grab my attention.

excon

[tomder55]

Sorry ,the Dem talking point about the Bush tax cuts are intentionally deceptive.

The 2001 reconcilliation act passed with 12 Democrat Senators voting for it.
I'll gladly give up my tax cut if in exchange I don't have to pay for the Obama ruinous agenda.

[excon]

Sorry ,the Dem talking point about the Bush tax cuts are intentionally deceptive. I don't have to pay for the Obama ruinous agenda.

Hello again, tom:

Saying this bill has a "ruinous" agenda is what's deceptive, and you're intentionally saying that.

I agree, it won't help people much who already have insurance, but it'll be a big help to those who are not now insured. The problem is individuals who can't get employment-based coverage. And that market, in case you hadn't noticed, is a disaster — no coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions, coverage dropped when you get sick, and huge premium increases in the middle of an economic crisis. It's this sector, plus the plight of Americans with no insurance at all, that reform aims to fix. What's wrong with that?

Now, I know you have different information than I do, but the bill under consideration is going to CONTROL costs and REDUCE the deficit too.

Sorry, tom. Looks like you're going to have to pay (if you make more than $200K) for Obamacare, just like I have to pay for Bush's TWO ruinous wars.

excon

[speechlesstx]

To pretend it isn't a huge government power grab, and not a talking point, is also delusional.

I'm also not going to do your work for you, I've said it more times than I can count that we need changes, you search for it. I just don't buy this idea that it's so broken we have to completely redo health care. It would be like amputating a leg for an ingrown toenail - overkill.

[excon]

To pretend it isn't a huge government power grab, and not a talking point, is also delusional. I just don't buy this idea that it's so broken we have to completely redo health care.

Hello again, Steve:

It's insurance reform. It's NOT a complete redo of health care. You're repeating TALKING POINTS. It REDOES NOTHING. It is anything BUT a huge government power grab. It's insurance reform. That's all. That's it. It's nothing more than that. The talking points are what's delusional. The words HUGE GOVERNMENT POWER GRAB, are Republican talking points.

No matter how WRONG those points are, by repeatedly sticking to the message, as you do, you have demonstrated WHY the Democrats have LOST the talking point battle. You guys are good at that. The Democrats suck at it.

But, that's ALL they lost. The bill they're fashioning without you, while it's not what I hoped it would be, might do something positive. In fact, it might even be enough to allow some congressman to KEEP their seats. You see, contrary to you, I believe the American people WANT change, and THIS change is what they voted for.

I don't know how you think that means we're a center right country, but you do... THAT'S what's delusional.

excon

[tomder55]

Obama has reached for a vast reordering of the economy without any votes from the Republicans and wrecking the seats of the blue dog Democrats .
And amazingly the Dems like Pelosi and Reid think it is worth it.

Why ? Because the ideology behind it trumps the politics. The nanny state lives on and it will be permanent. The statists win even if it costs them later in the polls.

[excon]

and wrecking the seats of the blue dog Democrats .
And amazingly the Dems like Pelosi and Reid think it is worth it.

Hello again, tom:

Let me see. The Republican party discards its centrists and moves to the right, and that's good.. But, when the Democrats shed their centrists, that's bad. I understand...

There ain't no centrists anyway. The parties have been moving away from the center for a long time. Let's get on with it. The center SUCKS!

excon

[tomder55]

Reagan attracted the centrists without changing conservatism.

They left and supported the Dems when the Republicans stopped acting like conservatives. Now they find they were sold a bill of goods in 2006 (as was predicted here.. reference what was called a 'trojan horse strategy ') .

Yes ;the issue with centrists is that one cannot discern an identifiable philosophical base . They do however represent a sizable portion of the people.

[excon]

They left and supported the Demswhen the Republicans stopped acting like conservatives.

Hello again, tom:

When they (Lieberman, Nelson, Stupak, et all) stop acting like liberals and support the Republicans, the Dems are going to throw them to the curb too. What's different?

excon

[speechlesstx]

Ex, facts are facts. Obamacare WILL create huge new - permanent - government bureaucracies, it will dictate what coverage you have, it will dictate what treatments you're allowed, it will ultimately put everyone on the 'public option.' For someone who has argued time and again that insurance already does such things it's curious you would use that as your argument.

It's as simple as this, if the problem is the uninsured then let's take care of the uninsured. Leave the rest of us alone.

[Catsmine]

Now, I don't know what's IN the bill, because the bill hasn't been written yet.

It's insurance reform. It's NOT a complete redo of health care. You're repeating TALKING POINTS. It REDOES NOTHING. It is anything BUT a huge government power grab. It's insurance reform. That's all. That's it. It's nothing more than that

Did you find out what's in the bill in two hours, Ex? Or is this more Libprog "what I said before doesn't matter, it's what I'm saying now" rhetoric?

[cdad]

What would Reagan say about all this health care stuff??


YouTube - Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine

[excon]

Did you find out what's in the bill in two hours, Ex?

Hello Cats:

Yup. See above where it says I can read.

excon

[Catsmine]

Hello Cats:

Yup. See above where it says I can read.

excon

Where can I read it?

[paraclete]

This appears to be such a weighty matter that the legislation cannot be passed without the president leaning on Congress and the Senate. Obama has delayed his visit to Australia and Indonesia because of the health care legislation, apparently it takes precedence over foreign policy. So much for keeping a dog and barking yourself

[tomder55]

Yes Clete ,the President needs to be there to sign whatever concoction and bast@rdization of the bill reaches his desk .

This weekend the House is contemplating a blatantly unconstitutional remedy to break the impass. Effectively they may try to submit the Senate version of the bill to the President without actually voting on it themselves(a clear violation of article 7 sec 2).

There will be immediate court challenges to this of course ;but the Dems will declare victory and go home to their constituents and tell them "well no....I did not actually vote for it ".

Don't put your hopes up in the President doing anything useful in Australia . As he has demonstrated ,he is willing to damage our relationships with the English speak nations .