[Wondergirl]

WG if you have to ask you probably are not.
Sealed,sanctified,saved. pick the word that fits best.

Lutherans do not use the word "sealed." And thank you for your confidence.

[450donn]

First, sorry for being judgmental. That was wrong.
Now I find it interesting that you are saying that Lutherans ignore the whole bible?
How about Ephesians 1;13?
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed you were marked in him with a seal, (sealed) the promised Holy Spirit.

[Wondergirl]

First, sorry for being judgmental. That was wrong.

Yeah, like, unChristian?

Now I find it interesting that you are saying that Lutherans ignore the whole bible?

The whole Bible? (What are you smokin', bro?)

I suspect Lutherans don't use the word "sealed" as part of their doctrine because "sealed" implies that once the Holy Spirit works faith in a person, that person is saved forever, no matter what happens or what he does. Lutherans don't believe that. They believe that any Christian who turns his back on Christ and the Gospel is damned. (Of course, they also believe he can repent of this and again be counted as saved. Only God knows the human heart and will judge accordingly.)

[450donn]

Did you not say in your post above "Lutherans do not use the word "sealed."
So the word is in the bible many many times, so conclusion Lutherns do not believe in the Whole bible. Right or were you mistaken in what you were trying to say?

"yeah, like, unChristian?"
Now who is being judgmental?

[Wondergirl]

Did you not say in your post above "Lutherans do not use the word "sealed."
So the word is in the bible many many times, so conclusion Lutherns do not believe in the Whole bible. Right or were you mistaken in what you were trying to say?

Your logic is faulty. I explained why Lutherans do not use the word "sealed" in doctrine and in creeds (because it is too easily misunderstood to mean "once saved, always saved" which Lutherans do NOT believe). It does not follow that Lutherans do not believe "the whole Bible" (maybe we should talk about that too, what that means).

now who is being judgmental?

Not I. I was searching for a synonym. Note my question mark.

[450donn]

So, again, by not using a word are you deleting it from the bible or are you simply ignoring the word and it's use in the bible? Either way then you are not understanding the whole word if your denomination chooses to ignore or not use a word? Please bear with me, I am trying to understand how anyone or any denomination can simply not use a word that is in the bible because it does not align with their doctrine.

[Wondergirl]

So, again, by not using a word are you deleting it from the bible or are you simply ignoring the word and it's use in the bible? Either way then you are not understanding the whole word if your denomination chooses to ignore or not use a word? Please bear with me, I am trying to understand how anyone or any denomination can simply not use a word that is in the bible because it does not align with their doctrine.

I said Lutherans do not use it doctrinally with the meaning I gave you. The word is not erased from their Bibles. Do you believe sealed means "once saved, always saved"?

[classyT]

WG,

Hmmm? If the Bible uses the word SEALED... why not just believe it. I believe the Lord says what he means.. and means what he says... SEALED.

I believe that if a person is truly saved they cannot lose their salvation. The key being truly saved.. not just saying they believe. Some believe with their heads.. not their hearts. No one EVER has a real relationship with the LOrd, speaks to him, listens to him.. loves him and then says... naaah... I'm going to worship idols.. or... I don't want to believe in you anymore. It is like me saying... I don't believe you exist WG... you do!. How do I know? Because you keep posting. If you have the real GOLD and you KNOW it... you don't exchange it for fake. No way. Besides... we are SEALED and that settles it.

[Wondergirl]

I believe that if a person is truly saved they cannot lose their salvation.

There is a Christian and his child is kidnapped, raped, and tortured before being brutally murdered. The Christian curses God for allowing this to happen. For the rest of his life, this now-former Christian does everything he can to blacken God's name. Has this man "lost his salvation"? And yes, he was a Christian in every sense of the word before his child was ripped from him.

[classyT]

There is a Christian and his child is kidnapped, raped, and tortured before being brutally murdered. The Christian curses God for allowing this to happen. For the rest of his life, this now-former Christian does everything he can to blacken God's name. Has this man "lost his salvation"? And yes, he was a Christian in every sense of the word before his child was ripped from him.

NO... a person doesn't lose their salvation and the Holy spirit will continue to woo that person back to himself. I contend, and many Christians disagree with me.. that a true Christian... a REAL one not a head knowledge person... is saved forever. Take a look at the man in 1 Corinthians 5. Paul said to hand the guy over to satan for the destruction of his body so that his soul could be saved. He was living with his step mom in a sexual relationship. Paul called him a BROTHER... and said his soul would be saved but the Satan could have at him for not turning from his sin. There is a million reasons I believe this... take Noah's Ark... Ark is a picture of Christ... no ONE could get in once the door was closed and NO one could get out until he let them out. They never had to hang on for dear life and hope they made it through the flood... Jesus Christ is the AUTHOR and Finisher of OUR faith... even in the scenario that you gave. That is what I think

Sorry Galv for getting off course...

[450donn]

WG, if you have not done so, please read The Shack. This story centers around the exact scenario that you are trying to describe. Maybe you will gain some insite into the meanings of saved, sealed and forgiveness.

[Wondergirl]

WG, if you have not done so, please read The Shack. This story centers around the exact scenario that you are trying to describe. Maybe you will gain some insite into the meanings of saved, sealed and forgiveness.

I read it last year. Mack was questioning how a good and loving God could allow his daughter to die in such a way, but Mack hadn't given up on God entirely -- big difference from my scenario.

Why do you think I need insight?

[classyT]

WG,

Here is the thing in your scenerio, as a Christian we understand that everything we are given here on earth , we are only stewards of. Our children aren't ours but the Lord's. Our money isn't ours but the Lord's, our home isn't ours but the Lord's. So if the Lord SHOULD allow a person to lose everything then we eventually have to DIE to ourselves and say... Even IF he slays me... YET will I trust him. So my position is eventually a born again person will indeed get to that point in his walk. Some quicker than others but if they are saved.. they will get there. But Salvation is of the Lord. I can't save myself nor can I keep myself saved. OK.. I guess nuff said.

[Abraham34]

Galveston, you say well! There are two baptisms or visitations by the Spirit, by our individual determination. One is clearly the Spirit of Christ who seeks to indwell. This is often confused with the receiving of Holy Spirit - again by our own actions in desiring Him in greater fullness : briefly my experience is as follows : following a 'movement' of the Spirit in a Baptist church (1981) by my own choice the Minister 'laid hands on me' and - nothing! But a couple of weeks later, whilst working late, completely on my own, the Holy Spirit in a sense, broke through as it were, and I was enabled to prophesy which was the most unique religious experience I have ever had. I was changed for ever, rising as it were to a higher level of understanding and desire for Him. I remember the prophetic utterance even to today.. does this help?

[hheath541]

In this country today, none of the denominations that I know of teach their people that they need to be baptised in/with the Holy Ghost other than the pentecostal groups, and the percentage of their people who receive the Holy Ghost is pitifully low.

I just want to say that the mormon church teaches that you must be baptized with the holy ghost. It's even part of the baptismal ritual. The holy ghost holds as prominent a place in the mormon church as jesus.

since this is a serious question the serious answer is the Gifts of the Spirit becoming manifest in your life. Speaking in tongues is usually the initial evidence but the ability to prophecy, to heal, to perform acts of faith, all these and more are explained in Scripture. For me it started with tongues totally unexpectedly but moved on to faith and healing, but your whole view changes you understand the Scriptures better. I would not lie about such matters and I don't expect you would either, however we are told to test every spirit so you will be brought undone if you lie, i have written a book about my experiences in revival and as a spirit filled Christian. i would have had no motivation to do this if it were not so.

The way the mormon church teaches it, the holy ghost speaks in a 'still, small voice.' prophesy, speaking in tongues, healing, and the like, are never really heard of beyond the bible. People speak of miracles, but they are almost never attributed to another human being.



Please understand, I'm just trying to give you another point of view to think of. I'm not trying to step on any toes or offend anyone. I just stumbled across this thread and figured I'd add a point for you to discuss.

[paraclete]

i
prophesy, speaking in tongues, healing, and the like, are never really heard of beyond the bible. people speak of miracles, but they are almost never attributed to another human being.

.

Then these people are missing something that is spoken of in the Bible and is part of daily life. Did I know this before I experienced it? Not really, but it is clearly laid out in the Bible and easy to see when you understand

[Donna Mae II]

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."

"Do not be deceived. God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Paul wrote this to the church he started in Ephesus: So I tell you this and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
... You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. Surely you heard of him, and were taught in him accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitudes of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold..

He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

For of this you can be sure: no immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolator--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light.

... "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."

Be very careful, then, how you live--not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.


I don't even want to believe 'once saved always saved,' I won't take that chance. Why would God have to warn us to be on guard of the devil's schemes, if we are a shoe in to heaven. It doesn't make since to believe that we have a special pass to heaven just because we say we do, when
God warns us to put on his full armor to stand against the devil. We are humans and if we don't do God's will we're going to fall.

[classyT]

I don't even want to believe 'once saved always saved,'

An I don't even WANT to believe that any of my eternal security depends upon me. Why? Because I know me... and I will screw it up.

God didn't throw a life boat to Noah and his family and leave it up to them to hold on to it. NOPE. He put them in a BIG OL ARK. No one got in... no ONE got out. What a beautiful picture of the Lord Jesus.

Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and believes they can willy nilly live in sin and not have the consequences of their behavior is foolish. You are correct... Whatsoever a mans sows he reaps. AND I would check my birthcertificate if I thought I could do what my flesh wanted. BUT...
ain't no way the Lord left my eternal security up to me. Salvation is of the Lord. PERIOD.

[galveston]

This might be a good time to post these words of Jesus.

John 15:1-6
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
(KJV)

I think this pretty much says it all.

[Donna Mae II]

An I don't even WANT to believe that any of my eternal security depends upon me. Why? because I know me...and I will screw it up.

Are you saying then that you don't have to worry about anything you say or do because you just know you're going to heaven? Just because you believe it there's nothing you could ever do for God to say, "I never knew you?"

God didn't throw a life boat to Noah and his family and leave it up to them to hold on to it. NOPE. He put them in a BIG OL ARK. No one got in...no ONE got out. What a beautiful picture of the Lord Jesus.

God gave Noah very specific instructions on how to build the ark, and Noah followed them to the letter. God gave us very specific instructions on how to be saved, they're all contained in his word, including being baptized into Christ.


Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and believes they can willy nilly live in sin and not have the consequences of their behavior is foolish. You are correct...Whatsoever a mans sows he reaps. AND I would check my birthcertificate if I thought I could do what my flesh wanted. BUT.....
ain't no way the Lord left my eternal security up to me. Salvation is of the Lord. PERIOD.

But you are implying that there is no way to lose salvation once you believe so then are you saying that you can live willy nilly in sin and still be saved? Salvation is of the Lord, and we can do his will and be saved or pick and choose which ones we want to follow and run the risk of being lost.