[inthebox]

If you do not believe in God, or have faith in God, any actions here in this life die with you. For those that believe and have faith in God, fruit is of the vine John 15, and Matthew 25:31 warns us of the consequences of our actions or inactions.

If your world view is like Philipians 4, then there is no need for the rat race of over consumption nor the inappropriate anxiety over AGW.

G&P

[Alty]

What I mean is that God is in control of the big picture and that climate is not part of man's responsibility.

Man was given oversight of the day to day affairs, and he is responsiblefor his own problems.

Property rights are sacred as are rights of inheritance.

We are supposed to treat our fellow man in the manner we wish to be treated. If this were followed, there would be no opression of the weaker among us, whether by politicians, dictators, or CEO's.

But as it relates to this thread, it means that those who attempt to defraud the public with rigged information for their own personal gain are nothing more than predators.
They hope to make everyone else provide them with great wealth and power.

Definitely not a biblical world view.

This is your belief. Mine is different.

You're stating this as if it's fact, but it's not.

You have the right to your belief, you do not have the right to state your belief as fact. You don't have any proof that your belief is anything other then a belief.

Look up the word belief. Maybe then you'll understand.

[Alty]

If you do not believe in God, or have faith in God, any actions here in this life die with you. For those that believe and have faith in God, fruit is of the vine John 15, and Matthew 25:31 warns us of the consequences of our actions or inactions.

If your world view is like Philipians 4, then there is no need for the rat race of over consumption nor the inappropriate anxiety over AGW.

G&P

Again, this is your belief.

Why do Christians always state their beliefs as if they're fact?

How do you know that my actions in life will die with me because I don't believe in your God? You don't know that. If there is a God, then he knows. But what if I'm right? What if God built this world and then walked away? What if he doesn't give a damn about any of us?

Do you ever even stop to consider that you may be wrong? I know I do.

As for my actions dying with me. No, they won't. Everything that I do in life affects someone. Haven't you watched the move "It's a wonderful life"?

My kids will carry on, as will their children. If I'm lucky I'll live long enough to be a part of my grandchildren's lives and they'll pass my legacy to their children. I will die, in body, but my life's work will live on. That's a fact.

I'm sick and tired of people thinking that their way is the only way. I'm a good person, I'm no less then you, I'm no more then you. We have different beliefs. I accept your right to believe, why can't you accept mine?

It's maddening.

This is why Christians get so many arguments, because they simply won't give an inch to anyone. They always have to be right, even though they have no proof that they are.

If only you'd open your mind enough to listen. What a wonderful world it would be.

[inthebox]

I put a comment out there and you and NK then say you don't need faith or GOD, so it is you that are being argumentative. I'm not saying that I'm right or your wrong. I'm making a reference to where I'm coming from. I think the OP, Gal can relate to that.

What if God built this world and then walked away? What if he doesn't give a damn about any of us?

Then what we do in this life does not matter, does it? It only matters to our own egos.

Do you ever even stop to consider that you may be wrong? I know I do.

Nope, nada, nunca. I like the God that loves and forgives us, will never leave us :D



G&P

[Alty]

I put a comment out there and you and NK then say you don't need faith or GOD, so it is you that are being argumentative. I'm not saying that I'm right or your wrong. I'm making a reference to where I'm coming from. I think the OP, Gal can relate to that.

And what comment did you put out? Let me guess, because I don't feel like going back to look. It was probably something along the lines of people believing in God being the only good people, the only charitable people, the only people that make a positive impact on this world. Oh I'm sure that's not a direct quote, but I'm also sure I got the jist of it.

In other words, I don't believe in the same God you do, so I'm not a good person. That's what it boils down to.

I'm tired of hearing that only God loving bible quoting Christians can be good people, do good, live good lives. I love my kids just as much as any Christian. I give to charity. I help people in need. I am a good person. I don't need your God to be any of those things and I resent the fact that I've always been told that only Christians can be good.

It's not true.

It's insulting.

It's hurtful and I'm done with it.

We're always told to listen to your point of view. We're told that the bible is the "word" that we're lost, that all we have to do is believe, accept God into our lives and then we can be just like you. Well what if we don't want to be just like you? Did you ever stop to consider that we've read the books, done the research, searched for your God and didn't find him, because our minds told us that he's not there? What makes you think that we're somehow lacking? We're not. We simply didn't go down the same path as you. We're not lost, we just found something else.

Why are your beliefs so much more valid then mine? They aren't, but still, we're told to listen to your beliefs when none of you are ever willing to consider ours.

After 39 years of dealing with this, wouldn't you be argumentative too?

If there was a Deist forum, and I had the numbers, and everyone told you you were wrong, how would you feel if you kept talking but were never heard?

Well, that's how I feel right now.

Yes, I'm upset. Heck, I'm done. I give up. You win. I have no rights to believe what I want. Happy now?

Peace out. Obviously I'm too upset to be here. I probably shouldn't post this, but I have to get it off my chest.

Good night.

[TUT317]

Hi altenweg,

There is no need to be angry or upset.

What makes it difficult for a Deist is there is no Deist Bible ( as far as I am aware). If there were then you could provide quotes of your own as evidence of your belief.

Christian religion is in the fortunate position of being able to quote from the bible (the Bible being a factual account)

As a Christian I am happy to entertain other evidence which supports or goes against the Bible. This is pretty much what theology is about. Now, some Christians don't entertain theology, what is said in the Bible is fact and that is the end of the argument. Given this, there is no basis for argument, so it is a pointless exercise.

Most, however are prepared to put their beliefs to the test in the form of theology and philosophy. The reason being is they see the importance of establishing what is written in the bible as truth. They also see the need to communicate the truth to others who may be believers or non-believers and perhaps to distinguish themselves from other religions.

I can come up with a number of arguments for the existence of God, but I know that as soon as I do someone will come up with a counter argument. This does not upset me because I know that knowledge of God and the physical world progresses this way.

If there is no Deist Bible to refer to then there must be a Deist philosophy. It is no more difficult to formulate an argument for Deism then it is to formulate any other type of theological argument.

In the end we can formulate a logical argument for just about any position we like.

I hope this helps

[tomder55]

The Deist philosophy has been written by a number of people . A short list of people to read is the writings of Voltaire;
Lord Herbert of Cherbury ;considered the father of English deism... 'De Veritate (On Truth, as It Is Distinguished from Revelation, the Probable, the Possible, and the False)' (1624)

John Locke ' An Essay Concerning Human Understanding '


others include Peter Annet ;Charles Blount ,John Toland 'Christianity Not Mysterious' ,Antony Ashley Cooper, third Earl of Shaftesbury ,Antony Collins ,Thomas Woolston ,Matthew Tindal ,Thomas Morgan ,Thomas Chubb .

Herbert was big on the concept of common notions . From De Veritate

No general agreement exists concerning the Gods, but there is universal recognition of God. Every religion in the past has acknowledged, every religion in the future will acknowledge, some sovereign deity among the Gods.. .
Accordingly that which is everywhere accepted as the supreme manifestation of deity, by whatever name it may be called, I term God.

While there is no general agreement concerning the worship of Gods, sacred beings, saints, and angels, yet the Common Notion or Universal Consent tells us that adoration ought to be reserved for the one God. Hence divine religion— and no race, however savage, has existed without some expression of it— is found established among all nations.. .

The connection of Virtue with Piety, defined in this work as the right conformation of the faculties, is and always has been held to be, the most important part of religious practice. There is no general agreement concerning rites, ceremonies, traditions... ; but there is the greatest possible consensus of opinion concerning the right conformation of the faculties.. . Moral virtue... is and always has been esteemed by men in every age and place and respected in every land...

There is no general agreement concerning the various rites or mysteries which the priests have devised for the expiation of sin... General agreement among religions, the nature of divine goodness, and above all conscience, tell us that our crimes may be washed away by true penitence, and that we can be restored to new union with God.. . I do not wish to consider here whether any other more appropriate means exists by which the divine justice may be appeased, since I have undertaken in this work only to rely on truths which are not open to dispute but are derived from the evidence of immediate perception and admitted by the whole world.. .

The rewards that are eternal have been variously placed in heaven, in the stars, in the Elysian fields... Punishment has been thought to lie in metempsychosis, in hell,. or in temporary or everlasting death. But all religion, law, philosophy, and... conscience, teach openly or implicitly that punishment or reward awaits us after this life.. . [T]here is no nation, however barbarous, which has not and will not recognise the existence of punishments and rewards. That reward and punishment exist is, then, a Common Notion, though there is the greatest difference of opinion as to their nature, quality, extent, and mode.. .

It follows from these considerations that the dogmas which recognize a sovereign Deity, enjoin us to worship Him, command us to live a holy life, lead us to repent our sins, and warn us of future recompense or punishment, proceed from God and are inscribed within us in the form of Common Notions.. .

Revealed truth exists; and it would be unjust to ignore it. But its nature is quite distinct from the truth [based on Common Notions]... [T]he truth of revelation depends upon the authority of him who reveals it. We must, then, proceed with great care in discerning what actually is revealed... [W]e must take great care to avoid deception, for men who are depressed, superstitious, or ignorant of causes are always liable to it.. .

And of course Jefferson wrote "Jefferson's Bible " or 'The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth' in which he edited out of the Bible any supernatural reference .

[speechlesstx]

In other words, I don't believe in the same God you do, so I'm not a good person. That's what it boils down to.

I'm tired of hearing that only God loving bible quoting Christians can be good people, do good, live good lives. I love my kids just as much as any Christian. I give to charity. I help people in need. I am a good person. I don't need your God to be any of those things and I resent the fact that I've always been told that only Christians can be good.

It's not true.

It's insulting.

It's hurtful and I'm done with it.

I think you're being unnecessarily defensive. In fact I'd guess most Christians agree with the notion that you don't have to believe in God to be a good person. I think most Christians would agree that being a Christian DOESN'T necessarily make you a good person.

The message of Christianity isn't "you must be a Christian to be a good person" or "being a Christian makes you a good person," it boils down to "God loves you." If they send the first message they're just wrong... in my opinion.

[NeedKarma]

I think you're being unnecessarily defensive. In fact I'd guess most Christians agree with the notion that you don't have to believe in God to be a good person. I think most Christians would agree that being a Christian DOESN'T necessarily make you a good person.

The message of Christianity isn't "you must be a Christian to be a good person" or "being a Christian makes you a good person," it boils down to "God loves you." If they send the first message they're just wrong...in my opinion.

I agree with you all the way. Unfortunately that's not what we often see on this website, this thread is a perfect example: gal's point is that the "godless" are fools.

[Synnen]

American cities have cleaner air today than they did 40 years ago. This in spite of there being many more automobiles than 40 years ago.

And we did not destroy the economy to do that.

That depends on WHOSE economy you think we didn't destroy.

Talk to China, Russia, Argentina, Brazil, and Iraq about how THEIR economies are doing after the US meddled in them.

[excon]

What I mean is that God is in control of the big picture and that climate is not part of man's responsibility.

Hello gal:

Charlatans 3:02:94...

What ELSE isn't man's responsibility? Should man have flown in the air? Should we seek to travel in space... Should we mess with bacteria??

Those sound WAAAAAYYY beyond the day to day God authorized.

Ex

[galveston]

That depends on WHOSE economy you think we didn't destroy.

Talk to China, Russia, Argentina, Brazil, and Iraq about how THEIR economies are doing after the US meddled in them.

China's economy is doing pretty well right now. And they will NOT saddle themselves with some impossible climate control effort.

Russia's economy was destroyed by COMMUNISM, plain and simple. How did we figure in that?

I don't know about the economies of the others, but you are wrong on the first two and seem to be on the same page with Obama. Blame America for all the ills of the world.

Consider this.

If Congress ratifies some treaty made in Copenhagen look for the following results.

You will be told what temperature to set your home thermostat at.

You will not be able to take that driving vacation that you wanted because of high fuel prices and/or rationing.

Do you remember what happened to food prices recently when diesel fuel topped $5.00 per gallon? You want more of that?

Do you want some bureau monotering your carbon footprint?

And all because idiots presumed to intrude into an area that is not their responsiblility.

Have fun.

[tomder55]

Clintoon came back with the Kyoto treaty signed in his back pocket . And that is where he kept it . Prior to voting on it the Senate did vote on the Byrd-Hagel Resolution rejecting the language of the treaty . It passed 95-0.

The same will occur with any agreement coming out of Copenhagen . The President knows he can't even get a cap and trade provision passed into law. That is why he authorized the EPA to take unilateral actions. I'm sure Congress will be thrilled with that usurpation .

[galveston]

Hello gal:

Charlatans 3:02:94...

What ELSE isn't man's responsibility? Should man have flown in the air? Should we seek to travel in space... Should we mess with bacteria???

Those sound WAAAAAYYY beyond the day to day God authorized.

ex

What we learn in space may be of benefit here on Earth, but man will never colonize space. It just isn't practical

You didn't mention genetic engineering. Are you OK with that?

Do you think man can ACTUALLY control the climate?

I'm guessing that long before man can produce enough air pollution to alter the climate, he will be extinct from asthma, lung cancer and COPD.

I posted earlier that in the USA, we have been cleaning our air up, despite millions more vehicles on the road. We just need to keep doing what we have been doing.

Under Bush, CO2 emissions were headed for a 14% reduction by 2020 or so. Progress was being made, but now we just have to destroy our economy to get another 3%. Do you think that makes any sense?

[speechlesstx]

Speaking of a godless world view...

Child's Christmas artwork deemed 'violent'

Taunton (AP/WBZ Newsroom) -- A Taunton man says his 8-year-old son was sent home from school and ordered to undergo a psychological evaluation after drawing a stick figure Jesus on a cross.

The man told the Taunton Daily Gazette his second-grader made the drawing after his teacher asked children to sketch something that reminded them of Christmas. He said the teacher at Maxham Elementary School thought the drawing was too violent.

The father, who asked that his name not be used, said the family had recently seen a Christmas display at a religious shrine.

Superintendent Julie Hackett said she could not discuss an individual student and the school followed proper protocol.

Toni Saunders, an educational consultant working with the family, said the teacher was alarmed because the boy drew Xs in the eyes of Jesus.

A school committee member reacts:

School administrators have approved the father's request to have the boy transferred to another elementary school in the district.

The offending image by the 8-year-old ordered to undergo a psychological evaluation?



Perhaps the lad should have been more of a Rembrandt...

[excon]

Hello again, Steve;

You have a propensity for posting things about what some obscure wacko did, as though it means something. That, or you think this is the National Inquirer.

excon

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve;

You have a propensity for posting things about what some obscure wacko did, as though it means something. That, or you think this is the National Inquirer.

You have a propensity for dismissing the sublimely ridiculous things taking place in taxpayer funded institutions.

[Synnen]

I'm bothered that they were asked to sketch something reminding them of Christmas!

It's NOT just a Christian holiday season--as a matter of fact, we're smack-dab in the middle of Hannukah right now, with Yule next week!

And let me tell you, if someone drew a dead person and said it reminded them of the "happy holiday season"--especially a dead person who was killed in a gruesome manner--I'd refer the kid for psychological evaluation too.

[tomder55]

Please accept with no obligation, implied or explicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all.

I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2010, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere.

Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.

[speechlesstx]

I'm bothered that they were asked to sketch something reminding them of Christmas!

Intruding on your constitutional right not to be offended?

It's NOT just a Christian holiday season--as a matter of fact, we're smack-dab in the middle of Hannukah right now, with Yule next week!

Who's to say that wasn't on the agenda as well?

And let me tell you, if someone drew a dead person and said it reminded them of the "happy holiday season"--especially a dead person who was killed in a gruesome manner--I'd refer the kid for psychological evaluation too.

Christmas isn't "the happy holiday season," it's about Jesus and it's a federal holiday, but there we go intruding on your right not to be offended again.