[ETWolverine]

Hello again, Elliot:

You're wrong again, as usual... You don't really think the black market would let such a valuable service as GALL BLADDER TRANSPLANTS, and the like, go unserved, do you?? Don't you pay attention to ANYTHING related to economic activity?? You're, what - a BANKER?? Dude!

If the government outlaws surgery, then surgery will be available in your back alley. I can here 'em now, as you pass by... The guy whispers... Colonoscopy?? Pap smear?? Right here. Got a dime bag a colonoscopy's and your pap smears - right here

Back room gall bladder surgeries...

Didn't we get rid of that sort of thing when we legalized abortion?

But you want to bring it back.

And you think that this would constitute and IMPROVEMENT in medical care?

But, back to reality... Out here in the real world, where ordinary people live, when your insurance company turns you down for services, you don't buy ANYTHING out of pocket... You're BROKE!! Therefore, you DIE!

Bull$h!t.

I just got turned down for a medicine that my insurance doesn't cover just YESTERDAY. Know what I did? I paid for it out of pocket.

And guess what... I'm not going to be filing for bankruptcy for it either.

And twice a week I go for therapies that aren't covered under my health care plan. I pay for those services out of pocket. Been doing it for almost 2 years now.

And guess what... I'm STILL not going to be filing for bankruptcy.

Under nationalized single-payer health care, I would be denied those same meds and services and not be able to get them on my own.

So you are just plain WRONG. You can buy services on your own if you are turned down by your health insurance. But not if you are turned down under a government run single-payer system.

Of, if they were to take your earlier advice, they could wheel themselves, with their oxygen tanks, and their IV's right down to their local church, and BEG for money. Maybe they could stand (sorry - sit) on a freeway interchange with a sign...

Or he could go online like anyone else and fill out some application forms for charitable organizations that help with his particular medical condition... you know, organizations like the American Cancer Society, American Heart Association, March of Dimes, whatever. No tin cups and dark glasses needed. But that's only if you want to live in the real world instead of the fantasy world you live in where everyone is poor and no charities exist to help them.

Now, you're probably going to retort that you could PAY for your hair transplant yourself, as though that's what we're talking about here - but it ISN'T. I don't think you'll address the issue head on because you do better when you deflect...

It's OK. That's why I'M here - to catchy you slippery righty's.

Excon

Nobody's talking about hair transplants. I'm talking about real ailments. In the real world. That are helped by REAL charities and organizations.

Like kidney disease
National Kidney Foundation: Kidney Disease

Heart disease
American Heart Association

Lung disease
Home - American Lung Association site

Cancer
American Cancer Society :: Information and Resources for Cancer: Breast, Colon, Prostate, Lung and Other Forms

Diabetes
American Diabetes Association Home Page

Y'know... little diseases like that... stuff that you apparently think there are no charities set up for to help people who need help.

But there are. And they do help people.

I know you don't want to admit it, but there's a safety net that already exists for people who don't have coverage or who are denied for certain services by their medical insurance carriers.

Under a single payer system, these charities DISAPPEAR because only the government will be able to pay for treatment. And if you are denied, these charities won't be available to help.

So tell me again how impossible it is to get charitable help for people in need of medical care.

Elliot

[sGt HarDKorE]

My mom got turned down when she got her hips replaced and she's paying out of pocket. She filed bankruptcy. Just because you can afford it ET, doesn't mean everyone else can

[ETWolverine]

My mom got turned down when she got her hips replaced and shes paying out of pocket. She filed bankruptcy. Just because you can afford it ET, doesn't mean everyone else can

I didn't say that everyone could afford it, Sarge.

All I am saying is that with private health care, if the insurance company turns you down, you have other options. Those other options may not be any better for you, but for others they could be. And those people can take advantage of those other options.

But in a single-payer system, if you get turned down by the government, you cannot get the service EVEN IF YOU ARE WILLING AND ABLE TO PAY FOR IT YOURSELF.

In Canada, there are plenty of people willing and able to pay for medical care on their own. They are NOT ALLOWED to. That is the meaning of being in a single-payer system. And that's why so many Canadians come here for their care... because here they have the option of paying for the care that are not allowed to pay for and have been turned down for in Canada's health care system.

So... are you willing to allow those options to be available for those who can take advantage of them? Of do you believe that EVERYONE should be equally screwed if they are turned down by the government-run health system?

That's all I'm trying to say, Sarge. In one system there are options. Those options may work for you, or they might not. But they are there, and for AT LEAST SOME people (most actually), they can be used.

In the other system there aren't any options other than the plan itself.

Which system do you choose?

I choose the system with the most options.

BTW, your mom DID get that hip replacement, didn't she?

If she had been turned down by the government, she'd still be hobbling around with a busted hip, whether she could afford to pay for it or not.

So... would you prefer that your mom not get the new hip? Cause if you think that the government is going to pay for what private insurance companies DON'T pay for, you're fooling yourself.

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

If she had been turned down by the government, she'd still be hobbling around with a busted hip, whether she could afford to pay for it or not.

In Canada you don't get turned down for a hip replacement. You get it done, no extra costs required.

[inthebox]

Hello again, Elliot:

You're wrong again, as usual... You don't really think the black market would let such a valuable service as GALL BLADDER TRANSPLANTS, and the like, go unserved, do you???? Don't you pay attention to ANYTHING related to economic activity??? You're, what - a BANKER??? Dude!

If the government outlaws surgery, then surgery will be available in your back alley. I can here 'em now, as you pass by.... The guy whispers.... Colonoscopy??? Pap smear??? Right here. Got a dime bag a colonoscopy's and your pap smears - right here

But, back to reality.... Out here in the real world, where ordinary people live, when your insurance company turns you down for services, you don't buy ANYTHING out of pocket.... You're BROKE!!! Therefore, you DIE! Of, if they were to take your earlier advice, they could wheel themselves, with their oxygen tanks, and their IV's right down to their local church, and BEG for money. Maybe they could stand (sorry - sit) on a freeway interchange with a sign...

Now, you're probably gonna retort that you could PAY for your hair transplant yourself, as though that's what what we're talking about here - but it ISN'T. I don't think you'll address the issue head on because you do better when you deflect....

It's ok. That's why I'M here - to catchy you slippery righty's.

excon

EX

They don't need to transplant gallbladders, they are not necessary for life; in fact when they get infected or become blocked by gallstones, they are removed.


The government won't outlaw things paid out of pocket - at least I don't think they will.
My family has basic dental coverage, so I pay out of pocket for the braces on my 3 kids. Not cheap, but life does go on without government intervention. In fact, would it not be nice if we can pay medical expenses and health insurance premiums with PRE-TAX dollars.
Is that in HR 3200?

Did you know that if your doctor accepts Medicare, he cannot charge less for an equal service to someone who has no insurance and pays 100% out of pocket. For example, if a routine visit for a cold is a $50 dollar charge for a Medicare patient [ Medicare pays 80%], the doctor cannot charge less than $50 to someone without insurance, say a minimum wage worker with no health insurance. The doctor may want to give this person a break, but the government considers it fraud.




G&P

[inthebox]

In Canada you don't get turned down for a hip replacement. You get it done, no extra costs required.

How soon? It was exactly that condition, a hip replacement, in 2005 that led the Canadian Supreme Court to allow people to get healthcare outside the government run system. To paraphrase one of your Supreme Court judges, " access to waiting lines, is not access to healthcare.




G&P

[excon]

For example, if a routine visit for a cold is a $50 dollar charge for a Medicare patient [ Medicare pays 80%], the doctor cannot charge less than $50 to someone without insurance, say a minimum wage worker with no health insurance. The doctor may want to give this person a break, but the government considers it fraud.

Hello again, in:

I don't want to snitch on my doctor, but BEFORE I turned 65, he'd give me a discount when I paid cash. Maybe he coded my visit as something else, I don't know.. But there's a way to do anything.

excon

[paraclete]

EX

Did you know that if your doctor accepts Medicare, he cannot charge less for an equal service to someone who has no insurance and pays 100% out of pocket. For example, if a routine visit for a cold is a $50 dollar charge for a Medicare patient [ Medicare pays 80%], the doctor cannot charge less than $50 to someone without insurance, say a minimum wage worker with no health insurance. The doctor may want to give this person a break, but the government considers it fraud.


G&P

Man, no wonder you guys have got a problem, $50 for a visit to a doctor just so he can tell you you have a cold?

[NeedKarma]

How soon? It was exactly that condition, a hip replacement, in 2005 that led the Canadian Supreme Court to allow people to get healthcare outside the government run system. To paraphrase one of your Supreme Court judges, " access to waiting lines, is not access to healthcare.




G&P

Soon enough for it not to be an issue. I posted about on one of these forums.











NK.

[ETWolverine]

Soon enough for it not to be an issue. I posted about on one of these forums.











NK.

NK, when your own court system says that the people have to wait too long to get hip replacements, I think their knowledge of the status of health care in Canada is stronger than yours. Again, you base your entire knowledge of your health care system on your personal experience. THEY base it on the statistics of your country as a whole. THEY have a better picture of your health care system than you do.

[NeedKarma]

NK, when your own court system says that the people have to wait too long to get hip replacements, I think their knowledge of the status of health care in Canada is stronger than yours. Again, you base your entire knowledge of your health care system on your personal experience. THEY base it on the statistics of your country as a whole. THEY have a better picture of your health care system than you do.

"Some vocal critics of the Canadian health care system are prone to using their own statistics, old data, or use specic instances of poor performance in local areas as if they were generally true across the country"

[ETWolverine]

"Some vocal critics of the Canadian health care system are prone to using their own statistics, old data, or use specic instances of poor performance in local areas as if they were generally true across the country"

Yeah... and sometimes they're right.