[adam7gur]

"Spirit" denotes the soul of man, or a supernatural act of God within man, or a supernatural life of grace. “Spirit” is used in Scripture to denote the immortality of the soul. This dualism is evident in John 12:27 “Now is my soul troubled” then again in John 13:21” he was troubled in spirit” and again in Luke “My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” The intellectual part that animates man is magnified while the immortal part rejoices in the Savior, i.e. the whole of man, body and soul, is saved in a Divine grace for an eternity.

Thus, when we read Matthew 10:28 – “And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell;” we understand that the immortal soul and body suffer eternally in hell. So, if we hold to trichotomy what happens to the spirit?

If we can take idiom and turn it into theology then it seems to me we can take Christ at his word and conclude there are five parts in man, e.g. heart, soul, mind, and strength; as in Mark 12:30, “And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind and with thy whole strength.”


JoeT

Joe
The living soul is the outcome of soil and the Breath of Life which in Hebrew is Rouach.The same word (Rouach)is used for The Spirit of God.
So, soil+Rouach=Living soul.

[arcura]

Adam,
Yes Rouach is Hebrew for spirit often used as the spirit of God.
What I find to be interesting is that it is a female word.
Think about that in relation to the Holy Spirit over shadowing Mary like a matron.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[adam7gur]

Yes Fred , it is interesting!

[classyT]

Here is what I believe the Bible teaches... we are sealed with the Holy Spirit after we believed and accepted Christ as our Savior. SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT!!

The Holy Spirit ( or the new nature) cannot sin because the Holy spirit is part of the trinity and therefore GOD! From what I can read, and understand from the scripture... HE ( the Holy Spirit can be grieved or saddened AND he can be quenched) Which does Imply that OUR OLD nature... fleshy nature, the one we are ALL born into this world with CAN cause the Holy Spirit to be greived and quenched by our actions, thoughts and deeds.

Once we are saved or born again with our NEW nature we are to yield to Him and produce the fruit of the Spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. BUT we must DAILY die to our old nature in order to live pleasing to the Lord.It isn't always as easy as it sounds. Dying to your own fleshy, sinful wants IS HARD but it IS also possible. And THIS is what is so cool about living this side of the cross. It is ONLY POSSIBLE because of the Holy Spirit who lives within us. Before the cross, the Holy Spirit did NOT dwell within the people of faith. Oh sometimes the Holy Spirit came UPON them but that is NOT the same. SO... This is how God the Father can look at ME as totally righteous and justified. Not because I did anything to deserve it but because JESUS did. So POSITIONALLY, I stand PERFECT before the Lord.

NOW, does this mean I do NOT sin any longer? NO IT DOES NOT!. I DO sin (NOT my new nature for the Holy Spirit is unable to sn)... my OLD nature does. AND when we sin, we confess it to the Father who is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The reason I confess my sin to the Lord Jesus is so I can fellowship with him.. without something between us. ( you know how is is when you have a argument with your spouse and you don't deal with it? BUT there is something between you and your spouse or whoever you sinned against. Until you talk it over... the relationship is strained.) Therefore, I confess my sins to the LORD NOT so I can be saved because He dealt with my sinful flesh on the cross... ONCE and forever. I confess for a relationship with HIM.

Therefore as a Christian I DO have the Holy spirit indwelling me AND I have my old nature that I SHOULD die to daily. Until we no longer have this old nature we will not be PERFECT in our acts, deeds and thoughts. AND sometimes I am chastened by the Father for it if I won't repent. Spirtually however, I am Perfect in the eyes of the Lord because I have accepted His son and my Savior.
Does this make sense? I hope it does. I think it is wrong when christian think or say we are perfect right now.. as if we can no longer sin. Perfection and HOLINESS is ALWAYS the Lord Jesus standard... how could he ever say be less than that?? But if we could do that on our own, he wouldn't have had to die for us.

Sndbay... after saying all that I will now answer this question below that you asked.

We have been delivered and redeemed to be similar to the image of HIS Son? Then who can sin or be a sinner?

K? You ready for the answer... who can sin or be a sinner... ME! And I'm in good company because I can boldy say The APOSTLE PAUL and the twelve while they walked on this earth. Therefore I conclude, Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord Jesus, is sealed with his Spirit but still in this OLD body and still has their flesh nature CAN sin and can be called a sinner.

[sndbay]

Sndbay....after saying all that I will now answer this question below that you asked.

We have been delivered and redeemed to be similar to the image of HIS Son? Then who can sin or be a sinner?

K? You ready for the answer.....who can sin or be a sinner.....ME! and I'm in good company because I can boldy say The APOSTLE PAUL and the twelve while they walked on this earth. Therefore I conclude, Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord Jesus, is sealed with his Spirit but still in this OLD body and still has their flesh nature CAN sin and can be called a sinner.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Perhaps it is to big of a cross to bear for some, and the might be destroyed is shown by failure to do as God wills. All are sinner, and all have been called.

ClassyT this is the Word of God speaking of the example REFER:Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

Now dead of his body but not the dead of Sara womb that was unable...

20 thr 25 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The explanation does continue into Romans 5, and verse 5:8 says REFER: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Did that verse somehow show us as sinner before Christ died. ONE Faith and ONE Lord, and the One Baptism is really the LAW of Faith we can boast about.

We received the atonement from Christ, and 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

God does forbid sin, and these verses go on and on.. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.



~walk in the spirit

[arcura]

classyT,
Are you saying that you are 2 nature persons in one?
That is a person with an old mature and one with a new nature all living in the same bosy mind and spirit?
That is confusing to me.
I believe that once a person accepts Jesus as the Lord and Savior and does as He instructs then that person has changed, but still remains imperfect because of sinning.
OK What has change?
That person's attitude, belief, life style, and character changes but he/she is still the same person with the same genes and name.

[classyT]

Fred,

I have the Holy Spirit indwelling me... that new spirit or nature can't sin. BUT the Lord didn't just take away my old sinful nature when I became saved. I have to reckon it dead. It is an act of MY will. Having the Holy Spirit is what gives me POWER over sin and my sin nature. I don't HAVE to sin. That is important to understand. Unfortunately I do sometimes.

Yes, I have an old nature and a new nature and it is in a constant battle... same as the Apostle Paul wrote about in Romans 7. What he WANTED to do... he didn't... what he didn't want to do, he did!! There is that battle going on in us... but Romans 8 gives us the remedy for the battle... the Lord Jesus! He delivers us from that battle.

OH! I agree there has been a change in any true believer... we just didn't get that sin nature out of us! I have had wicked thougts before.. now those thoughts didn't come for the Holy Spirit.. they came from my old sin nature. I have sinful desires, sometimes I'm selfish, or grumpy, or ungrateful. That is because I have a sin nature. Notice that Jesus was NEVER grumpy, quick tempered, selfish, ungrateful .because he never had that sin nature. Do I make sense to you at all? I'm not sure I am explaining it well.

Sndbay,

The Lord Jesus' standard is GO AND SIN NO MORE... period. I agree with every verse that says we are NOT to sin. But... WE DO! (sometimes) WHY? Because we still have that sin nature that WANTS to sin... loves sin. My new nature doesn't want to! IT CAN'T sin because He is the HOLY SPIRIT and He wants only to do the Father's will. So anytime a born again Christian sins... you can REST assured it was NOT the Holy Spirit that indwells them. It was their flesh or sin nature. THAT is why Paul said to reckon it dead. AND why he had to it everyDAY. We are told to do the same.

One last thing... that old man WAS crucified on the cross ( Spirtually )like Paul said... but IT HAS TO CONTINUE to be crucified daily. Oh it wants to live let me tell you... least mine does and SURELY I am not the only one that has to die to my will everyday. Am I?

[classyT]

[B]
[The explanation does continue into Romans 5, and verse 5:8 says REFER: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
~walk in the spirit

If you read the verse in context it means when we didn't deserve it he showed his love by dying for mankind. THAT verse is about HIS PERFECT love for us. It isn't about us NOT being able to sin after salvation.

1 Timothy 1:15

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief


now notice Paul didn't say I WAS chief but I don't sin anymore. He was a sinner saved by grace..

I don't believe he went around trying to sin, he said he had to die daily. Now why did he have to do that? Because if he didn't... his flesh would surely get in the way. He said if we walked in the spirit ( the Holy Spirit we were sealed with ) we would fulfill the lust of the flesh or the old man.

You quoted his verses on sin and grace. Where sin abounds.. grace does MUCH MORE abound. What does that mean.. It means where there is sin... there is MORE grace! Then he goes on to say does it mean you can continue to sin? NO! But he didn't say it was impossible to do so... he said we shouldn't. Our NEW nature CANNOT sin.. it is impossible but our flesh can and does and when we do sin... we repent, confess it and move on.

[JoeT777]

If you read the verse in context it means when we didn't deserve it he showed his love by dying for mankind. THAT verse is about HIS PERFECT love for us. It isn't about us NOT bein able to sin after salvation.

1 Timothy 1:15

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief


now notice Paul didn't say I WAS chief but I don't sin anymore. He was a sinner saved by grace..

I don't believe he went around trying to sin, he said he had to die daily. Now why did he have to do that? Because if he didn't ...his flesh would surely get in the way. He said if we walked in the spirit ( the Holy Spirit we were sealed with ) we would fulfill the lust of the flesh or the old man.

You quoted his verses on sin and grace. Where sin abounds..grace does MUCH MORE abound. What does that mean....? It means where there is sin....there is MORE grace! Then he goes on to say does it mean you can continue to sin? NO! but he didn't say it was impossible to do so...he said we shouldn't. Our NEW nature CANNOT sin..it is impossible but our flesh can and does and when we do sin....we repent, confess it and move on.

The name of a person signifies only one person which distinguishes it from all other people. Each person is endowed with one body animated by one and only one immortal soul. ClassyT has two natures, old and new? Which do we address? This is important - it makes me nervous - who has been submitting posts to AMHD, the old or the new ClassyT? So, when ClassyT-old addresses ClassT-new does the soul of the new animate the body of the old to speak, or vice versa?

If there were an old me and a new me, can I get a new me that's skinny?

I'm sorry couldn't help it. The idea of multiple me's seemed both hilarious and terrifying at the same time. I have a hard enough time keeping one of me in line. There is only one you, just as there is only one me. And when that one sins, it is a willful and voluntary act of disobedience to God by that individual. We can only blame ourselves for that sin, not the 'old-me,' or the 'new-me', or for that matter the 'other-me'.

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
Again I must agree with you.
There is only one me, you, her, him etc.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[adam7gur]

classyT, I would have given you a greenie if only I could!
I'm with you and so does Paul!
Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[classyT]

Joe,

Obviously I'm not explaining myself well. There is only one me and if I suggested otherwise then it was a misunderstanding. I did NOT get rid of my sin nature when I accepted Christ. It can't be fixed, or cleaned up.. it must be reckoned dead. The Holy Spirit doesn't and cannot sin. So if I sin, it isn't the Holy Spirit that lives in me... and JOE just for the record... I ONLY blame myself IF I sin.

[classyT]

classyT, I would have given you a greenie if only I could!
I'm with you and so does Paul!
Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Thanks ADAM! Whoo hoo! I started to think I was all alone here. This is Christianity 101!

[arcura]

adam,
Thanks for posting that.
It made me think it all over again.
In my heart and soul I do not want to sin and I do not but my flesh is weak and it does.
I am still but one person but my faith changes my attitudes for the better.
I'm beginning to understand where classyT is coming from.
Pace and kindness brother,
Fred

[adam7gur]

adam,
Thanks for posting that.
It made me think it all over again.
In my heart and soul I do not want to sin and I do not but my flesh is weak and it does.
I am still but one person but my faith changes my attitudes for the better.
I'm beginning to understand where classyT is coming from.
Pace and kindness brother,
Fred

I admire you so much.
Teach us more of what you got 'cause what you got comes from above!

[adam7gur]

Thanks ADAM! whoo hoo! i started to think i was all alone here. This is Christianity 101!

Wherever you are , you will never be alone!

[sndbay]

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Who sold us to sin?

classyT, I would have given you a greenie if only I could!
I'm with you and so does Paul!
Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Let me pin point one fact, and it is written in the scripture that was posted.

7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


Were we SET FREE, and given the Law of Liberty?

Who did deliver us?


7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Do you see the recap of what is being told. God ordained the Law from the beginning, and did man attempt to follow the law of sin. The Law did not fail them (7:22), but they fail because they were sold to sin (first ADAM) 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



Walk in the Spirit

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Not in the Spirit
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


Who do you follow?

Col 2:6-7-8 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[adam7gur]

sndbay!
Dear sister!
I can see what is in your mind but I cannot see what is in your heart that causes you to think and express the way you do.
Please tell me what is troubling you.

[classyT]

adam,
Thanks for posting that.
It made me think it all over again.
In my heart and soul I do not want to sin and I do not but my flesh is weak and it does.
I am still but one person but my faith changes my attitudes for the better.
I'm beginning to understand where classyT is coming from.
Pace and kindness brother,
Fred

Fred...

I am only ONE person too. I'm talking about my flesh being weak and the HOly Spirit who lives within me is HOLY. I live with both. I'm not crazy... ( well maybe a little but that has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about) :D

I'm glad Adam could explain it better than I could! :)

[classyT]

The name of a person signifies only one person which distinguishes it from all other people. Each person is endowed with one body animated by one and only one immortal soul. ClassyT has two natures, old and new? Which do we address? This is important - it makes me nervous - who has been submitting posts to AMHD, the old or the new ClassyT? So, when ClassyT-old addresses ClassT-new does the soul of the new animate the body of the old to speak, or vice versa?

If there were an old me and a new me, can I get a new me that’s skinny?

I’m sorry couldn’t help it. The idea of multiple me’s seemed both hilarious and terrifying at the same time. I have a hard enough time keeping one of me in line. There is only one you, just as there is only one me. And when that one sins, it is a willful and voluntary act of disobedience to God by that individual. We can only blame ourselves for that sin, not the ‘old-me,’ or the ‘new-me’, or for that matter the ‘other-me’.

JoeT

JOeT,


Good thing I like you so much! Or I'd have to come through this computer and smack you a couple of times upside the head. ( THAT was my flesh talking... hee hee):D

Many people find me hilarious and terrifying at the same time, it is part of my "charm'. ;)