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DrJ · Jul 9, 2009, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Yes that is exactly what we are trying to say. The Bible says the truth will set you free and when you have been set free YOU KNOW.

This is what we all are trying to say here.. the Truth WILL set you free. And when you have the Truth, you WILL know.

The Truth that runs through my veins is the same Truth that runs through yours.

N0help4u · Jul 9, 2009, 05:46 PM

... But many are deceived or do not care to have the truth.

DrJ · Jul 9, 2009, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

......But many are deceived or do not care to have the truth.

"Christians" and non-Christians alike...

N0help4u · Jul 9, 2009, 05:54 PM

Yep, many sit in the pew week after week thinking they are pleasing God because they fill the pew on Sunday.

Matt 7
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Athos · Jul 9, 2009, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

There are those who never heard and is sad and it is up to those of us who know the gospel to get the word out, but what is sadder is those who have heard the gospel, like those living in North America, including those on this board who still reject the gospel.

How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?

Athos · Jul 9, 2009, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

I did not interpret it. I have a copy of the Greek check it out.

Having a copy of "the Greek" or any other copy does NOT mean you did not interpret it.

N0help4u · Jul 9, 2009, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Athos

How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?

The millions who died before Christ were under the OLD Testament law so that doesn't apply.

Athos · Jul 9, 2009, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

The Bible has everything.

Prove it.

N0help4u · Jul 9, 2009, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Athos

Prove it.

Where do you want him to start that could take pages and pages

Athos · Jul 9, 2009, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by jakester

Athos - your objections are well taken. Anything is possible, but the bible is the only source document that is used to refer to anything Jesus said. You mentioned that he is the author of the Beatitudes but how you do know he really said the things contained there? Logically, if you could argue that the other sections of the bible attributed to things he said were really false, then how do we know that the Beatitudes were attributed to Jesus? I think a lot of our disagreement relating to what we think he said or did not say stems from our own perception of reality and what makes sense according to our worldview. If our worldview is one where there is no judgment for evil and no punishment, then the sections of the bible where Jesus is credited for saying that people will die in their sins or be punished for unbelief will not be attributed to him. We can pick and choose what we will but we have to see that our worldviews often influence what we want to see.

Now, when you refer to the sect that executed those who didn't believe, I'm assuming you are referring to the Crusades. I don't believe Jesus taught that it was right to execute those who didn't believe. He did teach that those who refused to believe in him would perish in their unbelief but that was a matter to be settled between the individual and God...not between me and the unbeliever. God said "vengeance in mine, I will repay." So, I ought to let people be free to be unbelieving or believing and worry about myself. God, in the end, will sort people out.

I hope I addressed each of your points in turn. Let me know if I missed anything.

Sincerely.

I can't prove that Jesus said the Beatitudes. I never claimed to prove it. I was comparing the sense of those ideas with other ideas attributed to Jesus.

I wasn't referring to the Crusades (no one was executed during the Crusades because they were non-believers). I was referring to the time shortly after Christianity became the state religion and heresy was defined as a capital offense.

Yes, you pretty much missed my entire point.

Athos · Jul 9, 2009, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Not possible. The NT was written by disciples. It was all written within a few decades of Jesus' death and resurrection. That is well established.

How could it possibly be "well established" when the earliest extant copies we have date from several centuries after the events?

Athos · Jul 9, 2009, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

The millions who died before Christ were under the OLD Testament law so that doesn't apply.

Huh? What is THAT supposed to mean?

N0help4u · Jul 9, 2009, 07:08 PM

It means your question isn't valid. How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?
They did not have to believe in Jesus because they had the Old Testament law to follow.

Athos · Jul 9, 2009, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Where do you want him to start that could take pages and pages

He made the statement. It's up to him to prove it. How he does it is his business.

Athos · Jul 9, 2009, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by 450donn

So, your saying that Matthew was written later than AD70? Or that Mark was written after AD140/ Or that Luke was written long afterAD 60? Hummm. Please tell us where you get this information. Because my bible clearly indicates differently.

Exactly where does your Bible prove the dates you claimed? Do you understand that the earliest copies we have date from the 4th century?

N0help4u · Jul 9, 2009, 07:12 PM

Yeah he made the statement.
So you are saying it is up to him to prove EVERYTHING so with your statement how he does it is his business means that however he chooses to prove EVERYTHING you will be okay with because it is his business?

Athos · Jul 9, 2009, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

It means your question isn't valid. How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?
They did not have to believe in Jesus because they had the Old Testament law to follow.

All you have done is change the premise. How did those who never heard of the Old Testament make out? Say, the millions of Chinese or American Indians or any other group that lived before Jesus?

Athos · Jul 9, 2009, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

yeah he made the statement.
So you are saying it is up to him to prove EVERYTHING so with your statement how he does it is his business means that however he chooses to prove EVERYTHING you will be okay with because it is his business?

What I am saying is pretty clear, I think. I certainly will not be OK with anything he claims because "it is his business". I don't know where you got that idea from.

Like any position, it is incumbent upon him to offer his reasons supporting his position. Then we'll take a look at what he offers. Simple as that. Don't make it unnecessarily confusing. It's pretty simple.

N0help4u · Jul 9, 2009, 07:21 PM

The Bible says that they were in a waiting place, a part of Hades, and before the resurrection Jesus set then free.

Athos · Jul 9, 2009, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

The Bible says that they were in a waiting place, a part of Hades, and before the resurrection Jesus set then free.

To begin at the beginning - this part of the thread is about proving the Bible. You cannot prove the Bible by quoting the Bible. First, it was necessary to believe in Jesus - I am the way, etc etc - remember that? Now, recognizing the impossibility of people believing in Jesus who died before Jesus, you come up with another story. Does it never end? Will you come up with something no matter what I ask?