[jenniepepsi]

He did not kill himself. He allowed them to kill him. He did not drive the nails himself to hold him to the cross, nor did he whip himself.

[Athos]

he did not kill himself. he allowed them to kill him. he did not drive the nails himself to hold him to the cross, nor did he whip himself.

What's the difference? He could have stopped it.

[arcura]

Athos,
No!
It was following the will of God the Father.
Fred

[Athos]

Athos,
No!
It was following the will of God the Father.
Fred

Ok, Arcura, you got me.

[jenniepepsi]

:D haha I was too late. Arcura responded faster than me.

[Athos]

:D haha i was too late. Arcura responded faster than me.

We'll give you Honorable Mention, jennie, for a close second.

[albear]

Albear,
You sure aren't the first person to not understand what I'm saying. I'll try to clear things up.
I said I had no comment on whether we have free will or not. People choose to sin. God loves sinners(us) but hates the sin that we do.

Ok yea that’s understandable but that implies he gave us free will and hence we don’t carry out his will unless we choose to, is that a better way of putting it?

Saying that it didn't make sense for God to create Lucifer knowing what would happen is what i talked about by God not acting the way you feel he should.

Yea I follow what your saying, but maybe he didn’t know maybe he isn’t all knowing.

1.I have experienced life without Christ so I know what that is like and I can readily see the difference in the Christians I have known that have been rescued from a life of violence, drug addictions, alcoholism, greed, etc. that were all self destructive, so I have seen other lives without Christ. (Especially when I worked as a bouncer)

Yea but that’s what I mean you’ve only experienced what you’ve been through in life and can only say that being a Christian is a better life than what you previously had.

2. The outcome isn't changed but since we don't know the outcome there is the possibility that anyone may come to know Christ. As you might someday. When I was an unbeliever I thought there was no way in this world I would ever become a Christian but God, in his grace and mercy, saved me and changed me.

That still doesn’t explain why people become Christians if it doesn’t change the outcome, and even becoming a Christian doesn’t change it so even if you become a Christian according to what you’ve said then you still stand a chance of being doomed.

3. I have investigated other religions yes and even non-believers agree that all other religions require a list of things to do to "get closer" to God or get to heaven or paradise. Even atheism requires that you don't believe in God.

I thought Christians followed the bibles teachings (whatever they may be I don’t know I haven’t read it) to get into heaven, is that wrong?

I don't see other religions as my enemy but yes, I am a hypocrite when it comes to letting God's love flow out from me at all times. In that, I fail.
Actually we are all hypocrites in the sense that we don't live up to our own made up code of conduct at all times.

Yea we’ve all been hypocrites at one point or another, but not being a Christian means it isn’t a sin, although in my opinion its not usually good to be a hypocrite.

I certainly took no offense at your reponse and appreciate you taking the time to point out where I didn't make myself clear.

Thanks I re read over what id written and It did strike me as being a tad bit hostile even though it wasn’t meant to be.
Sorry I took a while to reply but I've been very busy recently
Looking forward to hearing your response, as well as the responses you said you had arcura
Thanks
albear

[homesell]

Albear,
1st answer: Yes, "For it is not the Lord's will that any should perish" and "God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked"
2nd answer: Being all knowing(omniscient) is part of the definition of what God is. A being that did not know everything would not be God.
3rd answer: Not just my life but ask any Christian that has the spirit of God in them. If Life wasn't more wonderful and "better"(a subjective term) we could always go back to our miserable existence without God. (Though I don't believe one that has the Living God inside Him can choose for God to leave him or forsake him.
4th answer:It wasn't me that said once the living God has put his spirit in you that you stand a chance of still being doomed. Once His spirit is in you(true salvation) you are destined for glory with Him in heaven. Since He chose you before the foundation of the world, that is called pre-destined.
Answer 5: Yes true Christians follow the Bibles teachings. Not to "earn" God's love or to "earn" salvation because it can't be done. God doesn't say to us, "clean up your act and then maybe I'll consider letting you live with me when you die." Christians do what we do because God has already said he loved us and told us he wants us with him when we die. We all are sinners though and a holy God cannot have us even in his presence in that condition. So, while we were still sinners, Christ came and died to pay for all our sins. For the cost of sin IS death, but the free gift of God is life eternal through faith that Jesus paid our penalty on the cross. He took our place. We do follow the Bible in gratitude for what He has done for us.
Answer 6: It's like armchair quarterbacking. It's easy to see what we think the athlete or coach should have done and point out errors, but it's another story if these critics got out there and tried to do it themselves. Many see the Christian life as easy, just a bunch of "don'ts," don't do this, don't do that, etc. but it is really a bunch of "do" in that we are told by God to LOVE first and foremost. Love is an action verb. While a dead person never does anything wrong, a dead person never does anything loving or caring either.
I hope all this hasn't confused you more because I know I threw a lot at you. Thank you for patiently reading and your interest expressed in hearing my answers.

[albear]

Albear,


2nd answer: Being all knowing(omniscient) is part of the definition of what God is. A being that did not know everything would not be God.

Well that's debatable, and dependent on the variant of omniscient that your using

3rd answer: Not just my life but ask any Christian that has the spirit of God in them. If Life wasn't more wonderful and "better"(a subjective term) we could always go back to our miserable existence without God. (Though I don't believe one that has the Living God inside Him can choose for God to leave him or forsake him.

Still that doesn't quite back up what you claimed does it, it still is just an opinion and kind of biased, which I don't really mind, good for you having found a better life for yourself , I just don't believe what you said to be true tis all

4th answer:It wasn't me that said once the living God has put his spirit in you that you stand a chance of still being doomed. Once His spirit is in you(true salvation) you are destined for glory with Him in heaven. Since He chose you before the foundation of the world, that is called pre-destined.

Maybe not but you said were either all doomed or not anyway, no matter what we do, and that nothing we do here can change that, and now it sounds like you've changed your mind saying that once you have found god (allow his spirit in you) your spirit will be saved, those two aren't the same thing?

Answer 5: Yes true Christians follow the Bibles teachings. Not to "earn" God's love or to "earn" salvation because it can't be done. God doesn't say to us, "clean up your act and then maybe I'll consider letting you live with me when you die." Christians do what we do because God has already said he loved us and told us he wants us with him when we die. We all are sinners tho and a holy God cannot have us even in his presence in that condition. So, while we were still sinners, Christ came and died to pay for all our sins. For the cost of sin IS death, but the free gift of God is life eternal through faith that Jesus paid our penalty on the cross. He took our place. We do follow the Bible in gratitude for what He has done for us.

So basically you do what Christians do to get into heaven its basically word play that makes you believe other wise? Yeah I get that Christ came and died for our sins, so there fore again by proxy we get into heaven anyway no matter what we do, or could it be (this is whati think it means) that he died for all sins committed up to that point, (although personally I believe he was on death row and this is what was said to keep he religion alive, but that's not what were discussing I just wanted to show my stance though to make things clearer, )

Answer 6: It's like armchair quarterbacking. It's easy to see what we think the athlete or coach should have done and point out errors, but it's another story if these critics got out there and tried to do it themselves. Many see the Christian life as easy, just a bunch of "don'ts," don't do this, don't do that, etc. but it is really a bunch of "do" in that we are told by God to LOVE first and foremost. Love is an action verb. While a dead person never does anything wrong, a dead person never does anything loving or caring either.
I hope all this hasn't confused you more because I know I threw a lot at you. Thank you for patiently reading and your interest expressed in hearing my answers.

I don't know about that, I don't think people see it as easy, but rather 'bothersome' placing too many rules on things and restricting what they can and cannot do, if they want to follow Christianity.

I think some parts confused me (part 5 especially)because it seemed like you were changing your mind from what you had said before, that's fine if you did sometimes things get lost in translation, especially over the internet. Thanks for taking the time to respon.
Sorry it took so long to respond to your answers.

[homesell]

albear,
Thanks for responding. I, too, once believed that Jesus death on the cross paid for all our sins up until that point(I was in a cult that taught this)but it didn't take me long to see that I was still sinning either in thought, word, or deed.(As were the so-called leaders)
Oh yeah, I was changed and a new man, but the wages of sin is still death and no man can keep himself totally sin free. I found that the closer we get to God, the more aware we are of just how wrong we really are,(Hitler thought of himself as a nice guy) how God hates sin, and there is no hope for anyone that doesn't have all sins(past, present, future) covered by the blood of Jesus. That's why the saved are no longer under Law but under Grace. Where there is no law, there is no sin.
I know this sounds like double talk but it is clear in my head... I just have trouble writing it in a way that is easily understood. (pretty obvious to me since many times people at this website have gotten something totally different or even opposite of the point I was trying to make)

[albear]

albear,
Thanks for responding. I, too, once believed that Jesus death on the cross paid for all our sins up until that point(I was in a cult that taught this)but it didn't take me long to see that I was still sinning either in thought, word, or deed.(As were the so-called leaders)
Oh yeah, I was changed and a new man, but the wages of sin is still death and no man can keep himself totally sin free. I found that the closer we get to God, the more aware we are of just how wrong we really are,(Hitler thought of himself as a nice guy) how God hates sin, and there is no hope for anyone that doesn't have all sins(past, present, future) covered by the blood of Jesus. That's why the saved are no longer under Law but under Grace. Where there is no law, there is no sin.
I know this sounds like double talk but it is clear in my head... I just have trouble writing it in a way that is easily understood. (pretty obvious to me since many times people at this website have gotten something totally different or even opposite of the point I was trying to make)

So all of our sins have been accounted for and jesus paid the price, right? – is this sort of what you mean when you say were already doomed or not?-were already saved?
So that means nobody has to be a Christian to get into heaven, since were all going there anyway, and on that point it doesn't matter what we do here on earth because all of our sins have already been paid for, correct?
So again, there isn't really any reason why people would become Christians, yes becoming one has changed lives for many people I'm not saying it hasn't (born agains) but that's just a form of self help and not really what a religion is, is it.
Hmmmm, I guess its probably my perspective that's preventing me from seeing why people become Christians based on the things you've told me, maybe I will one day, but not today :)
Thanks for trying to explain it to me though :)

[homesell]

Albear,
I did not mean to even imply that everyone is saved and everyone has all their sins covered by the blood of Christ.
"For as many recieved Him, to them he gave to become the sons of God."
"whosoever believes on Him will be saved."
If we were chosen, (Jesus said, "You didn't choose me, I chose you.")the Holy Spirit brings us close to God, convicts us of sin, and arranges circumstances in our life that causes us to believe. No person can say if another person has been chosen. a chosen person is a Christian already or will become one before they die.
The difference in the life(or why become a Christian?) Has to do with being in a relationship with the creator of the universe.(Christianity is a relationship-not a religion)
Gal 5:16-26 says it best:
16 My counsel is this: Live freely, animated and motivated by God’s Spirit. Then you won’t feed the compulsions of selfishness.
17 For there is a root of sinful self-interest in us that is at odds with a free spirit, just as the free spirit is incompatible with selfishness. These two ways of life are antithetical, so that you cannot live at times one way and at times another way according to how you feel on any given day.
18 Why don’t you choose to be led by the Spirit and so escape the erratic compulsions of a law-dominated existence?
19 It is obvious what kind of life develops out of trying to get your own way all the time: repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; a stinking accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness;
20 trinket gods; magic-show religion; paranoid loneliness; cutthroat competition; all-consuming-yet-never-satisfied wants; a brutal temper; an impotence to love or be loved; divided homes and divided lives; small-minded and lopsided pursuits;
21 the vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; ugly parodies of community. I could go on. This isn’t the first time I have warned you, you know. If you use your freedom this way, you will not inherit God’s kingdom.
22 But what happens when we live God’s way? He brings gifts into our lives, much the same way that fruit appears in an orchard—things like affection for others, exuberance about life, serenity. We develop a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart, and a conviction that a basic holiness permeates things and people. We find ourselves involved in loyal commitments,
23 not needing to force our way in life, able to marshal and direct our energies wisely. Legalism is helpless in bringing this about; it only gets in the way.
24 Among those who belong to Christ, everything connected with getting our own way and mindlessly responding to what everyone else calls necessities is killed off for good—crucified.
25 Since this is the kind of life we have chosen, the life of the Spirit, let us make sure that we do not just hold it as an idea in our heads or a sentiment in our hearts, but work out its implications in every detail of our lives.
26 That means we will not compare ourselves with each other as if one of us were better and another worse. We have far more interesting things to do with our lives. Each of us is an original." -The Message

[homesell]

Albear,
I did not mean to even imply that everyone is saved and everyone has all their sins covered by the blood of Christ.
"For as many recieved Him, to them he gave to become the sons of God."
"whosoever believes on Him will be saved"
If we were chosen, (Jesus said, "You didn't choose me, I chose you.")the Holy Spirit brings us close to God, convicts us of sin, and arranges circumstances in our life that causes us to believe. No person can say if another person has been chosen. a chosen person is a Christian already or will become one before they die.
The difference in the life(or why become a Christian?) Has to do with being in a relationship with the creator of the universe.(Christianity is a relationship-not a religion)
Gal 5:16-26 says it best:
16 My counsel is this: Live freely, animated and motivated by God's Spirit. Then you won't feed the compulsions of selfishness.
17 For there is a root of sinful self-interest in us that is at odds with a free spirit, just as the free spirit is incompatible with selfishness. These two ways of life are antithetical, so that you cannot live at times one way and at times another way according to how you feel on any given day.
18 Why don't you choose to be led by the Spirit and so escape the erratic compulsions of a law-dominated existence?
19 It is obvious what kind of life develops out of trying to get your own way all the time: repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; a stinking accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness;
20 trinket gods; magic-show religion; paranoid loneliness; cutthroat competition; all-consuming-yet-never-satisfied wants; a brutal temper; an impotence to love or be loved; divided homes and divided lives; small-minded and lopsided pursuits;
21 the vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; ugly parodies of community. I could go on. This isn't the first time I have warned you, you know. If you use your freedom this way, you will not inherit God's kingdom.
22 But what happens when we live God's way? He brings gifts into our lives, much the same way that fruit appears in an orchard—things like affection for others, exuberance about life, serenity. We develop a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart, and a conviction that a basic holiness permeates things and people. We find ourselves involved in loyal commitments,
23 not needing to force our way in life, able to marshal and direct our energies wisely. Legalism is helpless in bringing this about; it only gets in the way.
24 Among those who belong to Christ, everything connected with getting our own way and mindlessly responding to what everyone else calls necessities is killed off for good—crucified.
25 Since this is the kind of life we have chosen, the life of the Spirit, let us make sure that we do not just hold it as an idea in our heads or a sentiment in our hearts, but work out its implications in every detail of our lives.
26 That means we will not compare ourselves with each other as if one of us were better and another worse. We have far more interesting things to do with our lives. Each of us is an original." -The Message

[arcura]

Jeff.
Well said.
Well done.
Fred

[albear]

"whosoever believes on Him will be saved" – so there is a requirement, a reason to be a Christian, in otherwords going against what you said before.
No person can say if another person has been chosen. A chosen person is a Christian already or will become one before they die.- I didn't say people could, so as long as a person becomes a Christian no matter what they've done in the past, (remembering the horrible types of people I mentioned before) they will get into heaven, again you said earlier that with the Christian belief doesn't reqire you to please god, but that's not really true is it.
And yea Christianity is a religion, I'm not saying its not a relationship, but it is a religion

What I got from those bits you quoted is that if you don't follow the religion then you're a selfish immoral arsehole, where as if you do they you're the best thing to ever happen to the world, it does seem to be blowing its own horn so to speak.

Right, look, its obvious to me that this littlediscussion between us has run its course, I don't understand some of the things your saying and some of it seems self contradictory, so I think id best just drop it and let it be, as I clearly don't get what it is your trying to say :)
Thanks for trying anyhoo
Albear :)

[homesell]

Albear,
I'm sorry I was unable to make my explanations clear. Since you want our discussion closed, I will stop. Thank you for at least reading my replies and trying to figure out what I was saying.

[albear]

Albear,
I'm sorry I was unable to make my explanations clear. Since you want our discussion closed, I will stop. Thank you for at least reading my replies and trying to figure out what I was saying.

No worries homesell :)

Yea I just see us going round in circles

[Unknown008]

My Opinion to the fact that God created Lucifer is that He didn't want to know. I mean, he let everyone choose what he wants to do, accept Him, or not. He won't go into yourself and see what you'll be or not; he leaves you that choice, that freedom to choose.

And a second thing I'd like to point out is that a Christian life isn't always 'better' from some point of view. Some Christians do have to suffer for God, but the goal is the same. The only difference in the 'hard life' of a christian and that of a non-christian is that christians have God by their side, who'll support them by all situations.

That's it. This was a really interesting discussion, though I may be wrong for the points I made above, I'm fairly convinced of them.

[homesell]

Unknown008,
Absolutely right about some of us being called to suffer. Christians are persecuted in many parts of the world and it will flat out get you killed if you declare it openly in some countries. I do believe this is why americans have been fed "easy-believeism and "Your best life now" baloney. I apologise for giving the impression the christian life is easy. Far from it. What I probably should have said was, My absolute best(rewarding, fulfilling, exhilirating) day as a non-believer is still not as good as my worst day as a Christian.
I think God created Lucifer because if we were never tempted, what would show our love? To some extent we would be mindless robots. Or like the serial killer in a maximum security jail saying that he hasn't killed anybody since he was incarcerated - it doesn't make him a non-murderer. "Where there is no temptation, there is no virtue" - me
Even Jesus faced temptation and his virtue is in that He overcame it.

[arcura]

Unknown008,
Yes I do believe that God gives us the freedom to choose.
I also know that life is very difficult for many Christians in many countries including some in this one.
Different people have different crosses to bear.
I pray that all will do so and persevere to the end of this life in preparation for the next.
Peace and kindness,
Fred