[sndbay]

We must have a different King James then.

there are approximately 133 references to the heavens.

Genesis 2:1 (KJV) "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."

Genesis 2:4 (KJV) "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."


Tj is right
the first heaven is considered our atmosphere.
the second is the galaxies
etc.....

How Many Heavens Are There

as far as the age of the earth
I want to answer this according to the gap theory but I really don't have the time right now to look up the original words and meaning

Nohelp4u,

(heaven)
There are in the KJV Concordance
occurs 583 times in 551 verses in the KJV
Page 1 / 23 (Gen 1:1 - Gen 27:28)

AND

(heavens)
KJV Concordance
occurs 133 times in 127 verses in the KJV
Page 1 / 6 (Gen 2:1 - Job 35:5)

Both verses you posted Genesis 2:1 2:4 do reference to heavens in the KJV Concordance

As for the ages: "Thus" in Genesis 2:1 is an example of new age beginning in generations of The Heavens and Earth mention in 2:4.

Genesis 1:1 says "heavens", just as Exodus 20:11 says "heavens" - Ex 20 tells us that everything was made in 6 days.

All scripture needs to be taken in context.

As the quote from Tj3 shows we were speaking of Genesis 1:1. What does your KJV have in Genesis 1:1?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. KJV

[Tj3]

Please reframe from this type of question. Neither you or I would suggestion this, and I would not even question anyone's integrity in this manner.

That is the problem - the point that you were making was not clear, and U was trying to trigger you to provide a clarification because this was all that I could dioscern from what you said. I did not think that this was what you meant, but after reading it several times, that was what came across.

[Tj3]

Yes we have earthquakes, however, have those earthquarkes ever seal up the stars or cause the sun not to rise. (Job 9:7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars. )

First, note these references must be after the 6 day creation because neither the sun nor the stars existed beforehand.

We do have a reference to the sun stopping:

Josh 10:13
13 So the sun stood still,
And the moon stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.
NKJV

And to a description of exactly what you suggest:

Matt 24:29-30
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
NKJV

Keep in mind that we do find some prophecy in the book of Job, so this may have been speaking about this future event, or Job may simply have been describing God's Almighty power. Nothing in these passages would even suggest a previous existence of man on earth.

Yes again Genesis does tell of a flood. However, can we read somewhere in Noah's flood that the heavens perished? The world perished compared to the destroy man and beast in Naoh's flood. God destroyed the corrupt flesh verse 6:13.

Let's look at it again:

2 Peter 3:5
5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
NKJV

Note that this is referring to the world, and says nothing about the heavens perishing. It does say that the heavens were of old, and the description given in scripture, and what we know of scientific findings is that the climate on earth prior to the flood was dramatically different and this the indiaction is that the sky was much different, probably due to a permanent cloud layer, similar to what we now call global warming which keep a great deal of moisture in the atmosphere, and caused the warmth to go across the worl;d, including even the poles (which scientists have found to be once tropical).

So once again, complete agreement with the flood timeframe, and nothing to even suggest a prior existence on earth.

Question: the land desolate yet will I make a full end?

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Read the full context. This passages tells you specifically what the context is. First of all, God refers here to the land of "my people", and there whole land shall be destroyed. Who does God refer to consistently as "my people"? The land of Israel, so this is referring to a judgment to come upon Israel. This is confirmed if you read on a bit further (keeping in mind that chapter divisions were added later and are not inspired):

Jer 5:1
"Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem;
See now and know;
And seek in her open places
If you can find a man,
If there is anyone who executes judgment,
Who seeks the truth,
And I will pardon her.
NKJV

This goes on quite a ways further, and once again God says that He will not make a complete end of her:

Jer 5:18-22
18 "Nevertheless in those days," says the LORD, "I will not make a complete end of you. 19 And it will be when you say, 'Why does the LORD our God do all these things to us?' then you shall answer them, 'Just as you have forsaken Me and served foreign gods in your land, so you shall serve aliens in a land that is not yours.'

20 "Declare this in the house of Jacob
And proclaim it in Judah, saying,
21'Hear this now, O foolish people,
Without understanding,
Who have eyes and see not,
And who have ears and hear not:
22 Do you not fear Me?' says the LORD.
'Will you not tremble at My presence,
Who have placed the sand as the bound of the sea,
By a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass beyond it?
And though its waves toss to and fro,
Yet they cannot prevail;
Though they roar, yet they cannot pass over it.
NKJV

Just read the context of this who portion of scripture and it is very clear that it has do with a prophecy of Jeremiah against Israel.

[Tj3]

What does your KJV have in Genesis 1:1?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. KJV

Sndbay,

It does not matter, because, as I pointed out before, scripture refers to many things as heavens. The Hebrew word refers to anything which is above us.

[sndbay]

Sndbay,

It does not matter, because, as I pointed out before, scripture refers to many things as heavens. The Hebrew word refers to anything which is above us.

Yes we both have made that point. God and all HIS creation of the heavens and earth, as the creator offers the unlimited vision of what HIS greatness holds.

I did not want to appear uninterested in what Nohelp4u was saying in her post. I am interesting in everyone thoughts.

[sndbay]

First, note these references must be after the 6 day creation because neither the sun nor the stars existed beforehand.

Unless there was a first age of the heaven and earth before the 6 day creation. And as I have said we have signs that give speculation of a first earth age.

We do have a reference to the sun stopping:

Josh 10:13
13 So the sun stood still,
And the moon stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.
NKJV

And to a description of exactly what you suggest:

Matt 24:29-30
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
NKJV

Keep in mind that we do find some prophecy in the book of Job, so this may have been speaking about this future event, or Job may simply have been describing God's Almighty power. Nothing in these passages would even suggest a previous existence of man on earth.

.

Agree nothing in the verses of Matthew or Josh suggest a previous existence. That would be your speculation that Job 9:6-7 would compares to them not mine .

[Tj3]

Unless there was a first age of the heaven and earth before the 6 day creation. And as I have said we have signs that give speculation of a first earth age.

We are not to go beyond what is written. To suggest that God created something before what is recorded in Genesis 1:1 is pure and absolute speculation at best. We cannot establish doctrine on what scripture does not say, or one can end up with all sorts of very strange doctrines by simply saying that the Bible doesn't say otherwise.

I could tell you that you must have green hair and 4fours eyes because scripture doesn't say that you don't! I don't believe that for a moment, but if we go beyond what scripture says, then that point would have as much validity.

Regardless, there are many reasons the gap theory falls apart, and I mentioned several. And let's not forget the fact that what God created was perfect and only became imperfect when man sinned. According to the gap theory, scripture is wrong when it says that occurred at the time of Adam's sin. So, the gap theory not only is based upon speculation of what scripture does not say, but it also goes contrary to scripture.

[sndbay]

Read the full context. This passages tells you specifically what the context is. First of all, God refers here to the land of "my people", and there whole land shall be destroyed. Who does God refer to consistently as "my people"? the land of Israel, so this is referring to a judgment to come upon Israel. This is confirmed if you read on a bit further (keeping in mind that chapter divisions were added later and are not inspired):

Jer 5:1
"Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem;
See now and know;
And seek in her open places
If you can find a man,
If there is anyone who executes judgment,
Who seeks the truth,
And I will pardon her.
NKJV

This goes on quite a ways further, and once again God says that He will not make a complete end of her:

Jer 5:18-22
18 "Nevertheless in those days," says the LORD, "I will not make a complete end of you. 19 And it will be when you say, 'Why does the LORD our God do all these things to us?' then you shall answer them, 'Just as you have forsaken Me and served foreign gods in your land, so you shall serve aliens in a land that is not yours.'

20 "Declare this in the house of Jacob
And proclaim it in Judah, saying,
21'Hear this now, O foolish people,
Without understanding,
Who have eyes and see not,
And who have ears and hear not:
22 Do you not fear Me?' says the LORD.
'Will you not tremble at My presence,
Who have placed the sand as the bound of the sea,
By a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass beyond it?
And though its waves toss to and fro,
Yet they cannot prevail;
Though they roar, yet they cannot pass over it.
NKJV

Just read the context of this who portion of scripture and it is very clear that it has do with a prophecy of Jeremiah against Israel.

Let's go back to what I had referenced. Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (Where does God ever suggest a full end other then in this paining heart of hurt that God is speaking concerning the lack of knowledge and obedience?)

Start with where God is clearly saying HIS people have no knowledge and their are foolish, and do no know HIM. God is pained in the heart, and could not hold HIS peace. Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

God saw the earth and it was without form, and no light in heaven
Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

God saw the mountains and they trembled, this is at the same time that God saw the earth become void, and heaven without light in the previous verse.
Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

God continues to clearly tell us of a time that HIS heart was in pain, and the earth trembled, and lo there was no man and all birds fled. Can we see what is taking place as the earth trembled to move mountains, as the earth became void and without form. The heaven had no light.
Jeremiah 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jeremiah 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 4:47 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

God made a full end, and the earth mourn, and the heaven above was black? no but it was desolute. Meaning of desolute? waste

Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.



Speculation YES or NO?

[sndbay]

We are not to go beyond what is written. To suggest that God created something before what is recorded in Genesis 1:1 is pure and absolute speculation at best..

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness became upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

********
New 6 day creation begins: New Age

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Speculation? YES we agree on that...

[Tj3]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness became upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

********
New 6 day creation begins: New Age

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Speculation? YES we agree on that...

I am glad that we agree on speculation.

We don't agree on the start of the 6 days.

[Tj3]

Let's go back to what I had referenced. Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (Where does God ever suggest a full end other then in this paining heart of hurt that God is speaking concerning the lack of knowledge and obedience?)

Large portion cut for sake of brevity

Speculation YES or NO?

Again, the portion of scripture has nothing to do with the topic. The portion of scripture specifically identifies it as a judgment against Jerusalem.

[sndbay]

Again, the portion of scripture has nothing to do with the topic. The portion of scripture specifically identifies it as a judgment against Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

So you see the earth void as being a predestination of a full end to Jerusalem, the earth, and no man left, and the heaven will be black.

I don't agree !

[Tj3]

Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

So you see the earth void as being a predestination of a full end to Jerusalem, the earth, and no man left, and the heaven will be black.

I don't agree !

Where did He say that He would make a "full end" of it?

Jer 4:27
27 For thus says the LORD:

"The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end.
NKJV


Jer 5:10
10 "Go up on her walls and destroy,
But do not make a complete end.
NKJV

And where does this say that this is a prophecy of the earth?

[galveston]

Speculation, true. But we still have that problem of the dinosauers, along with man, being present on earth at the same time as evidenced by tracks found at Glen Rose, Texas.

Look at this:

"created" in Gen 1:1 is defined as follows.

1254 bara' (baw-raw');

a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): -choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

"made" as in Ex 20:11 is defined as:

6213 `asah (aw-saw');

a primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows):

KJV-- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fighting-] man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.

They are two distinctly different words. Shouldn't we at least consider that something might be different in the two works of God?

[sndbay]

Where did He say that He would make a "full end" of it?

Jer 4:27
27 For thus says the LORD:

"The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end.
NKJV


Jer 5:10
10 "Go up on her walls and destroy,
But do not make a complete end.
NKJV

And where does this say that this is a prophecy of the earth?

Okay not a full end, which permits the new age. AND it is not speaking of Jerusalem's fall either.. Can we agree?

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Question: the land desolate yet will I make a full end?

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

[Tj3]

Okay not a full end, which permits the new age. AND it is not speaking of Jerusalem's fall either.. Can we agree?

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

We could discuss exactly what this is referring to, but that is not the topic of this thread. What is clear is that it is not referring to any gap in Genesis, but is a prophecy of a judgment to come upon Jerusalem.

I really do not want to get sidettracked onto something which is not going to address the topic.

[Tj3]

Speculation, true. But we still have that problem of the dinosauers, along with man, being present on earth at the same time as evidenced by tracks found at Glen Rose, Texas.

I see no problem with that - it fits nicely into the YEC understanding of creation.

Look at this:

"created" in Gen 1:1 is defined as follows.

1254 bara' (baw-raw');

a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): -choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

"made" as in Ex 20:11 is defined as:

6213 `asah (aw-saw');

a primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows):

KJV-- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fighting-] man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.

They are two distinctly different words. Shouldn't we at least consider that something might be different in the two works of God?

"Make" or "create"? I see no reason to think that these are two entirely different things. Something can be both made and created at the same time.

[N0help4u]

Nohelp4u,

(heaven)
There are in the KJV Concordance
occurs 583 times in 551 verses in the KJV
Page 1 / 23 (Gen 1:1 - Gen 27:28)

AND

(heavens)
KJV Concordance
occurs 133 times in 127 verses in the KJV
Page 1 / 6 (Gen 2:1 - Job 35:5)

Both verses you posted Genesis 2:1 2:4 do reference to heavens in the KJV Concordance

As for the ages: "Thus" in Genesis 2:1 is an example of new age beginning in generations of The Heavens and Earth mention in 2:4.



As the quote from Tj3 shows we were speaking of Genesis 1:1. What does your KJV have in Genesis 1:1?


Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. KJV

So what are you meaning by an example of new age beginning in generations if chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis are referring to one one week creation of ALL things?

Yes it says heaven in 1:1

[sndbay]

So what are you meaning by an example of new age beginning in generations if chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis are referring to one one week creation of ALL things?

Yes it says heaven in 1:1

Post #49

There was an age of dinosours and beasts with no communication skills that were created, and this would be the speculation of the earth that became void and unknown to man.(Perished)

(Genesis 1:3) begins the new creation. The heaven and earth age we know today. The six day creation that God offered man dominion over all the earth. (Genesi 1:26)

[Tj3]

Post #49

There was an age of dinosours and beasts with no communication skills that were created, and this would be the speculation of the earth that became void and unknown to man.(Perished)

Except, as another person noted, we have evidence that dinosaurs and men existed together.

(Genesis 1:3) begins the new creation. The heaven and earth age we know today. The six day creation that God offered man dominion over all the earth. (Genesi 1:26)

Except for the issues that I have raised a number of times which show that there can be no gap because the 6 days started in verse 1:1 and that for a gap to have existed would be a denial of the gospel.