Check out some similar questions!

De Maria · Apr 4, 2009, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

I note that you skipped right over this section of scripture.

Acts 10:46-48
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

No one skipped it TJ. It has been noted. The simple fact is that we don't agree with your interpretation. So the question remains. Where does this say that Cornelius was regenerated before he was baptized? It doesn't. It is something which you are reading into the Scriptures.

However, Cornelius' justification corresponds exactly to the justification of Abraham. God pronounced Abraham just. Yet Abraham did not go to heaven when he died. But to Limbo. That is Catholic doctrine with which I believe you have previously agreed. If not, let me know.

Now, if Abraham had been baptized, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ would have been applied to him. And he would have been regenerated and there would be no problem his going to heaven. But he wasn't. He had to await the Cross of our Lord before the blood of Christ was applied to him in the afterlife. Much like we believe the blood of Christ is applied to the saints who are purified in purgatory today.

Therefore, although Cornelius was justified according to the justification of repentance and received the Holy Spirit just as the Apostles had received. There still remained for him to be regenerated and renewed, born again, in Christ.

Tj3 · Apr 4, 2009, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

No one skipped it TJ. It has been noted. The simple fact is that we don't agree with your interpretation.

It is not an interpretation - it says straight out that they were given the Holy Spirit. The only question is - do you believe what God said in His word or not.

So the question remains. Where does this say that Cornelius was regenerated before he was baptized? It doesn't. It is something which you are reading into the Scriptures.

I should you that scripture says that the unsaved cannot receive the Holy Spirit, only those who are saved. Again, do you believe what God's word says or not?

De Maria · Apr 4, 2009, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

It is not an interpretation - it says straight out that they were given the Holy Spirit. the only question is - do you believe what God said in His word or not.

I should you that scripture says that the unsaved cannot receive the Holy Spirit, only those who are saved. Again, do you believe what God's word says or not?

I believe the Word of God, it is your word I distrust.

Tj3 · Apr 4, 2009, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

I believe the Word of God, it is your word I distrust.

Good! That is exactly what I am trying to get your believe.

De Maria · Apr 4, 2009, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Good! That is exactly what i am trying to get your believe.

No, there's a big difference between what you are saying and what the Word of God actually says.

Tj3 · Apr 4, 2009, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

No, there's a big difference between what you are saying and what the Word of God actually says.

Really? So far I see God's word explicitly saying the following:

- Only those saved can receive the Holy Spirit
- There are those who receive the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism.

Where do you find God's word denying these two facts?

De Maria · Apr 4, 2009, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Really? So far I see God's word explicitly saying the following:

- Only those saved can receive the Holy Spirit
- There are those who receive the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism.

Where do you find God's word denying these two facts?

I don't deny those two facts.

But there is another which you deny. God's Word says that we are born again in Baptism:

John 3

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Tj3 · Apr 4, 2009, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

I don't deny those two facts.

Good - we are making progress. Those facts alone are adequate to prove that baptism is not required for salvation. Since scripture does not contradict itself, clearly you are incorrect when you claim that the next passage contradicts what you agree God's word says.

But there is another which you deny. God's Word says that we are born again in Baptism:

John 3

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Since that passage does not specify the media of washing, you have given your own private interpretation to it. But scripture does tell us what the media of washing is and it is not water.

Rev 1:4-7
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

So despite your efforts to suggest to the contrary, all scripture is in concert that salvation does not depend upon baptism.

De Maria · Apr 4, 2009, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Good - we are making progress. Those facts alone are adequate to prove that baptism is not required for salvation.

That is Catholic Teaching. The Church teaches that those who have been converted to God and seek Baptism, if they should die, will receive a Baptism of desire.

And those who, though they may not have been baptized, but are martyred for Christ, will receive the Baptism of Blood.

Since scripture does not contradict itself, clearly you are incorrect when you claim that the next passage contradicts what you agree God's word says.

Nope. The verse you provided does not prove that Cornelius was regenerated or reborn before he was baptized. In fact, Baptism would not be necessary otherwise.

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.

No He doesn't. You equate the water with the flesh.

The pouring of the water signifies washing. But it also signifies the water (i.e. amniotic fluid) which is released when one is born.

He is equating the first birth with born of the flesh, the second birth (i.e. born again) with the birth of the spirit.

The first birth is of water and flesh. The second birth is of water and Spirit.

Since that passage does not specify the media of washing, you have given your own private interpretation to it. But scripture does tell us what the media of washing is and it is not water.

Water is the universally recognized media of washing. That is why it is such an apt sign for the Sacrament.

Rev 1:4-7
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

Unless you are going to cut yourself and bleed into a bucket before you perform a baptism, I don't know how you are going to baptize anyone in blood.

And even if you did, blood isn't very good media for washing. Blood leaves stains.

And finally, even if you did, your blood is not Christ's blood. So where are you going to get a bucket of Jesus' blood in order to baptize.

That should be enough proof that the verse is metaphorical. We are said to be washed in Christ's blood because He died for our sins and shed His blood on the Cross for us. But we aren't literally washed in His blood.

Therefore, again, the metaphor of water used to washes away dirt from the body is very effective at showing how the Holy Spirit washes sin away from our soul.

So despite your efforts to suggest to the contrary, all scripture is in concert that salvation does not depend upon baptism.

I'm afraid you've missed the boat.

The Catholic Church teaches according to the Scriptures, that Baptism is necessary for rebirth and regeneration in this life.

Other forms of Baptism or washing of the Spirit are applied by God's grace to those who die desiring union with God. Namely, Baptism of desire and Baptism of blood.

sndbay · Apr 5, 2009, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.

One step different that seems to be misunderstood in this scripture by what you have said... First we are born of water(within the womb) the flesh... then we are born again unto the Spirit in baptism.

Remember John the Baptist words: I baptize with water OT, but He who comes, baptizes of the Holy Spirit and fire.

sndbay · Apr 5, 2009, 06:05 AM

What is neglected in what we have learned is the details of when to be baptised.. And this could be why some insist that not all baptized are saved..

First we have the law (the school master) .. which leads us to Christ.. (Christ blood shed has brought us freedom from the curse which was the reason for the law).. Then confessed faith in Christ bring the act of following Him (righteousness).. Now righteousness holds the straight line of Truth of the Word.. The Word says be baptized of the Holy Spirit and fire... The Word says we can be baptized when we confess our faith in Christ... The Word says the disciples baptized when there was enough water... The Word says Christ suffered righteousness in fulfillment of baptism. Suffer it NOW!

When you can be baptized (Acts 8:38)
Water used to baptize (John 3:23)

Should one fall from Christ after this... it's a no deal

Tj3 · Apr 5, 2009, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by De Maria

That is Catholic Teaching.

I am not discussing your denominational distinctives. I am discussing scripture.

Nope. The verse you provided does not prove that Cornelius was regenerated or reborn before he was baptized. In fact, Baptism would not be necessary otherwise.

First, you already agreed on these points, so now you are backtracking. Second, are you saying that scripture DOES contradict itself? And your last point is circular reasoning.

No He doesn't. You equate the water with the flesh.

No, scripture does. I just quoted it.

Water is the universally recognized media of washing. That is why it is such an apt sign for the Sacrament.

Then are you denying those scriptures that tell us that it is the blood of Jesus that washes our sins?

That should be enough proof that the verse is metaphorical. We are said to be washed in Christ's blood because He died for our sins and shed His blood on the Cross for us. But we aren't literally washed in His blood.

Then are you saying that scripture lied about our sins being washed by His blood? You do know that Heb 9:22 says that without blood there is no remission of sins, don't you?

I'm afraid you've missed the boat.

The Catholic Church teaches according to the Scriptures, that Baptism is necessary for rebirth and regeneration in this life.

I've missed your denominational boat, and for that I am grateful to my Saviour. My eternity is in His hands, not your denominational teachings.

Tj3 · Apr 5, 2009, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by sndbay

One step different that seems to be misunderstood in this scripture by what you have said... First we are born of water(within the womb) the flesh... then we are born again unto the Spirit in baptism.

Scripture does not say that we are born again by water, but by the Word of God.

1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

"All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever."
NKJV

Remember John the Baptist words: I baptize with water OT, but He who comes, baptizes of the Holy Spirit and fire.

Right. And Ephesians says that there is ONE baptism which is essential - which is it, water or the Holy Spirit?

sndbay · Apr 5, 2009, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Scripture does not say that we are born again by water, but by the Word of God.

1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

"All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever."
NKJV

As shown: The Word incorruptible was shown by Christ Jesus.. HIS way to follow.. righteousness Suffer it NOW!

Now righteousness holds the straight line of Truth of the Word.. The Word says be baptized of the Holy Spirit and fire... The Word says we can be baptized when we confess our faith in Christ... The Word says the disciples baptized when there was enough water... The Word says Christ suffered righteousness in fulfillment of baptism. Suffer it NOW![/B]

Tj3 · Apr 5, 2009, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by sndbay

As shown: The Word incorruptible was shown by Christ Jesus.. HIS way to follow.. righteousness Suffer it NOW!

Now righteousness holds the straight line of Truth of the Word.. The Word says be baptized of the Holy Spirit and fire... The Word says we can be baptized when we confess our faith in Christ... The Word says the disciples baptized when there was enough water... The Word says Christ suffered righteousness in fulfillment of baptism. Suffer it NOW![/B]

Right. What the Word does not say is that baptism in water is essential for salvation.

It does says that those who believe will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (John 7:39, and it does say that the world (the unsaved) cannot receive the Holy Holy Spirit (John 14:17), therefore we know that whoever receives the Holy Spirit is saved (i.e. Acts 10:47).

sndbay · Apr 5, 2009, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Right. And Ephesians says that there is ONE baptism which is essential - which is it, water or the Holy Spirit?

Freed from sin and death ... now, a servant imprisoned by the LORD... Loyality and honour given unto God...

Eph 4:1-2-3 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

That unity is within each of us.. One body and one spirit
Look at the steps.. Knowledge of One Lord, Faith in One Lord, One Baptism unity with One Lord
Eph 4:5-6 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Unity within One Lord and one body is necessary in baptism so that each goes on to be taught by Christ. Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 4:26 If so be that ye have heard HIM, and have been taught by HIM, as the truth is in Jesus:

Tj3 · Apr 5, 2009, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by sndbay

Freed from sin and death ... now, a servant imprisoned by the LORD... Loyality and honour given unto God...

Eph 4:1-2-3 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

That unity is within each of us.. One body and one spirit
Look at the steps.. Knowledge of One Lord, Faith in One Lord, One Baptism unity with One Lord
Eph 4:5-6 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Unity within One Lord and one body is necessary in baptism so that each goes on to be taught by Christ. Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 4:26 If so be that ye have heard HIM, and have been taught by HIM, as the truth is in Jesus:

You did not answer the question - what is that "one baptism" spoken of in Ephesians. Is it the Holy Spirit, or is it water?

sndbay · Apr 5, 2009, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Right. What the Word does not say is that baptism in water is essential for salvation.

It does says that those who believe will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (John 7:39, and it does say that thw world (the unsaved) cannot receive the Holy Holy Spirit (John 14:17), therefore we know that whoever receives the Holy Spirit is saved (i.e. Acts 10:47).

Baptism is unity of one with Christ. and... HIS Fire to teach you along the way. It is a newness to life as I have referenced.

As babes born by water(womb), many remain blessed and protected. Yet babes are weak and give suck to deception. When baptized the teaching comes from within by Christ.. Walking in HIM and HE in us.

Tj3 · Apr 5, 2009, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by sndbay

Baptism is unity of one with Christ. and... HIS Fire to teach you along the way. It is a newness to life as I have referenced.

As babes born by water(womb), many remain blessed and protected. Yet babes are weak and give suck to deception. When baptized the teaching comes from within by Christ.. Walking in HIM and HE in us.

You still did not answer the question - is the one baptism spoken of in Ephesians of water, or of the Holy Spirit?

sndbay · Apr 5, 2009, 07:51 AM

This is Baptism: And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Our Father's Words: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Do we do what is pleasing to the eye of God? Is it essentail?