[JoeT777]

So, you are insisting on dragging me into this again.

Kicking and screaming if need be.

But, I don’t understand what’s compelling you to respond, obviously you don’t have to?

It'll have to wait, I've got another meeting to go to, so I'll write more later.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

We will all know the truth some day.
Some sooner than others.
But I believe that those who wait for the last day of this age have a long wait of at least 100 years.
Fred

I don't understand Fred, where did a 100-years come from? Why not 50-years? Why not 5,000-years?

JoeT

[arcura]

450donn,
Yes, I believe we are in the end of times and have been for 2000 years.
As I said previously the last day of this age is sooner than they were 2000 years ago.
God works in His time not ours.
But I do believe that we will have to wait at least 100 years for the last day to come along because far to many people expect it to happen in the next FEW years.
Most Christian DO NOT believe in the rapture.
A few million do.
Compare that to 2 billion Christians.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Galveston1]

The Scriptures cannot be broken.

John 10:35
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
(KJV)

1Thes 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

The resurrected righteous dead along with the changed righteous living will rise to meet Jesus in the air

II Th 2:7-8
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)

The restraining force that has up to this point kept Anti-Christ from coming to power is the Holy Spirit filled Church. (No one on these threads has offered any evidence contrary to this view so far)

Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

When Jesus actually returns to earth, His saints will be with Him. That means they had to have previously been called to Him.
This will be at the end of the Great Tribulation and will be Armegeddon.

Rev 20:2-5
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Saints of the ages will reign with Christ over a world repopulated by those survivors of the Great Tribulation.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(KJV)

Rev 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

Here are the wicked of all ages. It is their time of judgment.

After this comes the New Heavens and New Earth, and I think, New Jerusalem.

[JoeT777]

So, you are insisting on dragging me into this again.
If you were to listen to any of the well known bible scholars today they almost to a person believe that we are in the end times. Almost all of the propheticies have been fulfilled. Especially the one concerning Isreal becoming a nation in a day. Most from reading and studying the scriptures believe that the generation that saw Isreal's rebirth as a nation will not pass from this earth before the return of Christ.

Whether there is a time of tribulation is a matter of biblical prophecy. I'm not arguing that the prophecy is in error. Rather the interpretation by Darby that there will be “rapture” prior to the time of tribulation, later picked up by Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. When we look at the origins of pre-tribulation rapture we don't find John Nelson Darby, rather Margaret MacDonald a 14-year old, in a visionary séance in 1830. (Cf. Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot) This is not condition I would call conducive to being filled with the Holy Spirit.

But this hasn't stopped unconstrained thinkers from predicting failed pre-trib rapture.

• 1844 - William Miller predicted Christ would return between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844, then revised his prediction, claiming to have miscalculated Scripture, to October 22, 1844. Miller's theology gave rise to the Advent movement.
• 1977 - William M. Branham predicted that the Rapture would take place in 1977.
• 1981 - Chuck Smith undogmatically predicted that Jesus would likely return by 1981.
• 1988 - Publication of 88 Reasons the Rapture is in 1988, by Edgar C. Whisenant.
• 1989 - Publication of The final shout: Rapture report 1989, by Edgar Whisenant. More predictions by this author appeared for 1992, 1995, and other years.
• 1992 - Korean group "Mission for the Coming Days" predicted October 28, 1992 as the date for the rapture.[22]
• 1993 - Seven years before the year 2000. The rapture would have to start to allow for seven years of the Tribulation before the Return in 2000. Multiple predictions.
• 1994 - Pastor John Hinkle of Christ Church in Los Angeles predicted June 9, 1994. Radio evangelist Harold Camping predicted September 27, 1994.

Wouldn't you think such a profound theological doctrine would produce better results than these?

( Source: Wikipedia )

Again, you can choose to believe or not believe, that is your right as a free thinking individual. Personally I and most evangelical Christians do believe this.

What authority assures you that what you believe is right?

The restraining force on the earth right now against the works of satan is the Church. When the church is taken away from the earth, that will be the time that satan will gain total control of the earth for his reign of destruction as foretold in Revelations.

Yes as foretold in Revelation, not in Left Behind.

JoeT

[arcura]

Galveston1,
So just using the Scripture passages you have chosen the dead in Christ will be taken, the alive will be taken up into the clouds, and the evil sent to hell.
So there will be no one left on earth to celebrate the 1000 years of peace.
After which Satan will be turned loose for awhile to cause problems for no one.
Interesting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Galveston1, et al:

The Scriptures cannot be broken.

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (KJV)

True, scripture cannot be broken; but scriptural exegesis (the interpretation of scripture) can be ruptured.

1Thes 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (KJV)
The resurrected righteous dead along with the changed righteous living will rise to meet Jesus in the air

These verses in Paul’s first Epistle are to quail an argument among followers in the synagogue of a provincial capital of Macedonia, Thessalonike (Cf. Acts 17:2). The argument is over who will go first at the second coming of Christ; those who have already died in Christ and those who will be alive in Christ at the time of the second coming. Christ will return to earth in a great fan fair and the DEAD will rise first. Then the living shall go out to meet Christ as he returns to his Kingdom on earth.

This scripture requires that “the dead in Christ shall rise first.” First comes before second, usually. So, let’s see what it takes for the dead in Christ to rise. To be risen first we hear Christ’s words, “Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.” And, you must be of Christ. Which we hear Christ pulling us into his Kingdom, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.” (John 6:55) So, we see that the living don’t catch up with Christ until after the dead on the last day when Christ comes to re-claim his Kingdom?

II Th 2:7-8 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (KJV)

The restraining force that has up to this point kept Anti-Christ from coming to power is the Holy Spirit filled Church. (No one on these threads has offered any evidence contrary to this view so far)

How does this support 2 or 3 second comings? I don’t understand.

Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

When Jesus actually returns to earth, His saints will be with Him. That means they had to have previously been called to Him.

This will be at the end of the Great Tribulation and will be Armegeddon.

There is no support for a 2nd 2nd coming here. How does this show Christ doing a touch-and-go on his first of 2nd comings and a hard landing on the 2nd of 2nd comings?

Rev 20:2-5 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (KJV)

The Saints of the ages will reign with Christ over a world repopulated by those survivors of the Great Tribulation. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Where do we get, “repopulated by survivors” ? Where is a second coming of Christ? Read it again. We see a spiritual battle where Satan is bound for a long period; during that period we see the beheaded martyrs (priests of God and Christ) risen, no longer threatened with a second death during that long period. These priests are in heaven. Then we see a second RESURRECTION. Not a second coming of Christ.

Rev 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV)

Here are the wicked of all ages. It is their time of judgment.

After this comes the New Heavens and New Earth, and I think, New Jerusalem.

Agreed, these verses depict the rising of the dead and a judgment. Now we can have the living in Christ taken up. Especially, since in the next chapter, Chapter 21, after the dead are raised, we see a new heaven and a new earth. The holy city of God is built on earth. Behold, now the living in Christ go out to meet him!

JoeT

[adam7gur]

The Scriptures cannot be broken.

John 10:35
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
(KJV)

1Thes 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

The resurrected righteous dead along with the changed righteous living will rise to meet Jesus in the air

II Th 2:7-8
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)

The restraining force that has up to this point kept Anti-Christ from coming to power is the Holy Spirit filled Church. (No one on these threads has offered any evidence contrary to this view so far)

Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

When Jesus actually returns to earth, His saints will be with Him. That means they had to have previously been called to Him.
This will be at the end of the Great Tribulation and will be Armegeddon.

Rev 20:2-5
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Saints of the ages will reign with Christ over a world repopulated by those survivors of the Great Tribulation.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(KJV)

Rev 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

Here are the wicked of all ages. It is their time of judgment.

After this comes the New Heavens and New Earth, and I think, New Jerusalem.

Good job!

[Akoue]

I'm a bit confused by the most recent post. How have Fred and Joe erred in their reading of the passages cited by Galveston1?

As Fred said, the upshot is, to say the least, "interesting".

[arcura]

JoeT777
Again I must agree with you.
There will be NO 2 0r 3 comings of Jesus Christ to this planet and the clouds are a part thereof.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[margar]

Do any of you listen to john hagee, joel osteen or joyce meyers? John hagee pretty well has the last day figured out, not just by the new testament but by the old testament. Joel osteen is excellent in teaching a positive attitude and joyce meyer tells life as it is with all the complications. So lets say Christ will come back to catch his church away for those who are looking for Him . No one knows when not even Christ himself. While we are waiting lets get down to living like He is coming tomorrow. What about it? :D

[margar]

We see through a glass darkly

[classyT]

Arcura,

The second coming is when CHRIST SETS his feet on the Mount of Olives and it splits into.. THAT is the second coming and there is NO other. The rapture is NOT the second coming. He is picking up his bride.. he is NOT coming to the EARTH. Just because YOU think a catching away would be cinsidered second coming doesn't mean it is. The second coming the WORD says ALL EYES will SEE HIM. Only his bride gets to see him in the rapture. Not the same at all. And you can debunk it. Balk at it , laugh at it... shake you head and yet... we WILL be snatched away...

[arcura]

classyT,
You are TRYING to squeeze in ab extra coming of Christ ti this planet.
And don't forget that mountains are often in the clouds.
Mark my words there will be no rapture as it is being preached.
The bible teaches otherwise and the rapture as it is being preached does not make sense.
Jesus in merciful and loving. No where in the bible is there any indication that He did or would snatch away the pilots of an airplane and let it crash killing all aboard.
I do not believe my kind, gentle, merciful Lord would do that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[classyT]

classyT,
You are TRYING to squeeze in ab extra coming of Christ ti this planet.
And don't forget that mountains are often in the clouds.
Mark my words there will be no rapture as it is being preached.
The bible teaches otherwise and the rapture as it is being preached does not make sense.
Jesus in merciful and loving. No where in the bible is there any indication that He did or would snatch away the pilots of an airplane and let it crash killing all aboard.
I do not believe my kind, gentle, merciful Lord would do that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Indeed! I do NOT believe my kind gentle, merciful Lord would pour his WRATH out on his BRIDE!! The Lord says that if he didn't come back there would be NO flesh left alive that is how bad it is going to get. This isn't just some serious troubles, trials.. it is HELL on earth. AND... I will leave the Lord to the details of the raputre and airplane pilots. I don't know.. if I'm not saved I suppose being killed in a crash would be a better way to go then what is coming on this earth. But again.. the Lord knows what he is doing.

FYI.. I hope you saw my comment about america and the Great Satan. You misunderstood me in the other thread.. I bleed red, white and blue... I LOVE America. :)

[JoeT777]

do any of you listen to john hagee, joel osteen or joyce meyers? john hagee pretty well has the last day figured out, not just by the new testament but by the old testament. joel osteen is excellent in teaching a positive attitude and joyce meyer tells life as it is with all the complications.

Deliberately, Never!

so lets say Christ will come back to catch his church away for those who are looking for Him . no one knows when not even Christ himself. while we are waiting lets get down to living like He is coming tomorrow. what about it? :D

Agreed – you’re preaching to the choir here.

JoeT

[arcura]

Joet,
Agreed.
I am also a member of that choir.
Let us sing praises to God together.
Fred

[Galveston1]

Galveston1,
So just using the Scripture passages you have chosen the dead in Christ will be taken, the alive will be taken up into the clouds, and the evil sent to hell.
So there will be no one left on earth to celebrate the 1000 years of peace.
After which Satan will be turned loose for awhile to cause problems for no one.
Interesting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Lots of misconception here Fred, and Joel. First read it again:
1Thes 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

I know you know what "together" means.

How can you think that this passage says no one will be left on Earth? Only the redeemed will be cought up, everyone else will still be here. The devil will then have his way for the period of the Great Tribulation, after which he will be confined for 1,000 years, during which life will continue on planet Earth through those who lived through the Great Tribulation.
Then Satan will be let loose for a "short season" and will deceive the nations and lead one final assault against Christ and the redeemed and will then be cast into the Lake of Fire.

THEN will come the last resurrection which is that of the wicked dead who will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire along with the devil and his angels.

I can show you the scriptures if you want me to.

(edit) Actually, the devil isn't going to have his way, but he is going to cause a LOT of misrey during that time.

[arcura]

Galveston1
I was having fun with the non-sense of the rapture.
My sense of humor was at work.
I don't believe in the rapture as iit is being preached.
Jesus will come back to this planet just once only that includes the clouds.
Fred

[margar]

I cannot dispute scripture. Galveston took it right out of the Bible. First corinthians speaks of the catching away of the believers. When I say believes I speak of those who have been born again. Just because a person believe there was a man called Jesus doesn't mean that person will be in the catching away. Sitting in a church doesn't make you a christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car. Quoted from joyce meyers. There are going to be 7 years of tribulation. Are we going into it right now? There has been some different thought of when the catching away of the saints is going to happen. Some say after three and one half years and some say before the tribulation starts. The antichrist will set up a one world government and one world religion at that time. Lets hear some comments on the antichrist. A man who will come to conquer the world. The spirit of antichrist is in the world right now. The antichrist will imitate Christ and many will be fooled by him. I don't want to be here when this a takes place.