[Tj3]

Tj3,

To take your second point/question/invitation first: I cannot be righteous (dikaion) unless I am justified by Christ, and this cannot happen in the absence of faith. Righteousness requires justification, and these cannot occur in the absence of grace.

And since grace is unmerited favour, it cannot be by works or it would be something that we would merit.

[Tj3]

That doesn't say that all you need is Scripture.

Rather than trying to obfuscate it with a lengthy commentary - just read what it says, especially the section that I highlighted in my previous post. It is very plain and explicit.

Then have a gander at Proverbs 30:5-6

It sure is. But it is speaking about TEACHING sound doctrine. That is the Catholic model. In obedience to Christ's command, the Church teaches Jesus' gospel.

The church spoke about in the Bible does. But that church is not a denomination, yours or any other denomination.

It sure does say that God will give eternal life to those who persevere in good works. Read it again:

...the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

I see, wso you wish to take this out of the context of scripture, deny that salvation comes through the blood of Christ and say that if all we do nis good works, that we are saved.

I disagree. As pointed out previously, the context is that good works follows salvation, and in that case, those who demonstrate their faith through faithfulness (which is what scripture says) will indeed be saved.

First, our works are driven by faith. We believe and we act upon that belief.

Now you're getting it. And if they are driven by faith, faith comes first.

[De Maria]

Rather than trying to obfuscate it with a lengthy commentary - just read what it says, especially the section that I highlighted in my previous post. It is very plain and explicit.

I already did and I commented upon it very clearly.

Then have a gander at Proverbs 30:5-6

Doesn't say anything about Scripture. Remember, the Word of God can be spoken by men:

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

The church spoke about in the Bible does. But that church is not a denomination, yours or any other denomination.

The Catholic Church can be traced historically to Jesus Christ.

I see, wso you wish to take this out of the context of scripture, deny that salvation comes through the blood of Christ and say that if all we do nis good works, that we are saved.

I don't wish to say that. It would be wonderful if we didn't have to do anything to perfect our faith. But God says we must work:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I disagree. As pointed out previously, the context is that good works follows salvation, and in that case, those who demonstrate their faith through faithfulness (which is what scripture says) will indeed be saved.

Scripture is explicit. We are saved by our faith displayed in good works.

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Now you're getting it. And if they are driven by faith, faith comes first.

I never questioned that faith comes first. That is Catholic doctrine.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

But faith must be accompanied by works or it is not a saving faith:

1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Scripture is explicit. Faith alone is dead.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Akoue]

Tj3,

It's of more than passing interest to me what things you do, and what things you don't, reply to. I should have thought that if your view is as transparently true as you seem to suppose, by now you would have responded in a more substantive way to the objections I have raised. This doesn't reflect at all well on the prospects of the view you espouse.

Yes, grace is unmerited. The Catholic-Orthodox doctrine has always held this. From this, again (I keep pointing this out) it does not follow that faith and works together are not required for salvation. Good works require God's assistance, to wit, grace. Grace is a condition for BOTH faith and works. We cannot go it alone. Now I've been employing the most basic logical rules of inference throughout--I recently taught them to my six year old niece--but you seem almost stubbornly to refuse to reason carefully. And this is unfortunate. If Scripture is the word of God, then we all owe it better than sloppy reading and sloppy reasoning. Think of it as respect.

Your reply to De Maria once again veers rather wildly off-course. Nobody thinks that works ALONE save. I take it that De Maria means to make a case for the Catholic-Orthodox view that both faith and works together are required for salvation. You still have provided no pericope which states plainly that faith alone matters for salvation and works don't at all.

It's not at all clear to me what your frequent mention of "denominations" comes to. It is true that it has become something of a fad in recent years to decry "denominations"--the idea here sometimes seems to be that I can sit in a recliner with a beer in my hand and the Bible open in my lap and magically make sense of every jot and tittle without any real exertion or training. In any event, though, whether you agree with their teachings or not, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the only ones that date from the apostolic period, which is to say that if there are "denominations" out there, they must be the groups that in later centuries broke off from them (the gnostics, monophysites, protestants, et al.). And it is worth noting, again, that the only people in the ancient Christian communities who thought that a guy sitting alone in his room at night could penetrate the profundity of the Scriptures in their entirety were the gnostics--whom the Apostles themselves reproved. You claim that the Scriptures alone are your standard. But, of course, what I've shown is that it isn't the Scriptures that are a problem, it's your lax interpretations of them: So far, at least, you haven't shown yourself to be a good and careful reader. I think your latest reply to De Maria gives evidence of this.

[arcura]

De Maria,
Well said!!
Well done!!
By the way I often pray for the Holy Spirit to inspire me and I believe He has done so several times.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Yes, grace is unmerited. The Catholic-Orthodox doctrine has always held this.

If grace is unmerited, then there is nothing that we can or need to do in terms of work to get it.

From this, again (I keep pointing this out) it does not follow that faith and works together are not required for salvation. Good works require God's assistance, to wit, grace.

Which follows salvation. Scripture says that for us to do works pleasing to Him we must first be saved, and for the Holy Spirit to indwell and guide us to these good works, we must be saved.

Your reply to De Maria once again veers rather wildly off-course. Nobody thinks that works ALONE save.

And this is a strawman argument because no one, including myself even suggested it.

It's not at all clear to me what your frequent mention of "denominations" comes to. It is true that it has become something of a fad in recent years to decry "denominations"--the idea here sometimes seems to be that I can sit in a recliner with a beer in my hand and the Bible open in my lap and magically make sense of every jot and tittle without any real exertion or training.

Another strawman because I do not in any way oppose denominations. I oppose denominationalism.

You claim that the Scriptures alone are your standard. But, of course, what I've shown is that it isn't the Scriptures that are a problem, it's your lax interpretations of them: So far, at least, you haven't shown yourself to be a good and careful reader. I think your latest reply to De Maria gives evidence of this.

And that is an ad hominem.

[Tj3]

Doesn't say anything about Scripture. Remember, the Word of God can be spoken by men:

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

If and when it does, it will ALWAYS be in concert with God's written word.

The Catholic Church can be traced historically to Jesus Christ.

Even IF that were true (which I dispute based upon scripture and historical sources) it would still say nothing about whether it's teachings are correct. The same would be true for any church or denomination. We must base our doctrine on the word of God. Note in the book of Revelation that there were churches which traced back to the time of Christ and the Apostles and indeed were in existence in the first century, and when even these churches failed to keep in step with Biblical doctrine, God warned them what would happen to them. They gained no special status because of their close connections to Jesus. Scripture makes it clear that no church (not the one that you attend, not the one that I attend, no church), no denomination and no man has special status in His eyes. We are all sinners, and some of us save through grace by believing in Him.

I don't wish to say that. It would be wonderful if we didn't have to do anything to perfect our faith. But God says we must work:

Perfecting our faith means faith first exists. That is my point.

Scripture is explicit. We are saved by our faith displayed in good works.

Right. I think that you are finally coming around. The evidence of our faith is displayed in good works.

I never questioned that faith comes first.

Then you agree that the good works are the result of our salvation.

[De Maria]

... Right. I think that you are finally coming around. The evidence of our faith is displayed in good works...

I think we can agree on this statement.

Then you agree that the good works are the result of our salvation.

As I understand Scripture, without faith, we are not saved.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Therefore faith comes before salvation.

And without works, we don't have faith.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Therefore works come with faith. And without works there is no faith.

So, if it is true that without works one doesn't have faith, and one must have faith before one is saved, how can good works be the result of salvation?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

I think we can agree on this statement.

I am always happy to find a point of agreement.

As I understand Scripture, without faith, we are not saved.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Therefore faith comes before salvation.

When you are dligently seeking, you do not have faith. You only have faith once you are convinced of the truth and believe in the truth. You cannot have faith in something that you don't believe in.

And without works, we don't have faith.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This does not say that you don't have faith if you don't have works. It just repeats what we already agreed upon. Works are evidence of faith, and thus without the evidence, can you really say that the faith exists? That is all that it is saying. Of course we also have to recognize that even when a person is saved, they do not have works in the first second afterward, and maybe for some time thereafter. So even when dealing with the evidence of works, we need to be careful about how we judge.

[De Maria]

I am always happy to find a point of agreement.

As am I.

When you are dligently seeking, you do not have faith.

How does that jive with this verse, which seems to equate the faithful with those who diligently seek God?

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

As I understand it, St. Paul is saying that without faith one can't please God. Saying that positively, with faith one pleases God and God rewards that faithful one. In other words, God rewards the one who faithfully seeks Him.

You only have faith once you are convinced of the truth and believe in the truth. You cannot have faith in something that you don't believe in.

Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?

This does not say that you don't have faith if you don't have works.

What does it mean then, faith without works is dead?

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It just repeats what we already agreed upon. Works are evidence of faith, and thus without the evidence, can you really say that the faith exists?

No. Therefore, if faith is needed to be saved. And there is no evidence of faith without works. Can we say that one who claims to be faithful is saved?

That is all that it is saying. Of course we also have to recognize that even when a person is saved, they do not have works in the first second afterward, and maybe for some time thereafter. So even when dealing with the evidence of works, we need to be careful about how we judge.

Is diligently seeking God a work?

[Akoue]

James 2.24: "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" [ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon]. This *explicitly* states that we are not justified by faith alone (ouk ek pisteos monon).

[classyT]

Akoue,

Who wrote that passage? Check out who it wrote it too also.

[Akoue]

Akoue,

Who wrote that passage? Check out who it wrote it too also.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.

[De Maria]

Akoue,

Who wrote that passage? Check out who it wrote it too also.

St. James, the brother of the Lord to the Twelve Tribes in the Church, the New Jerusalem. We are all Spiritual Semites and the Church is the redemption of Israel.

Neither is there one Church for the Jews and another Church for the Gentiles. Jesus only made one Church:

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[classyT]

DeMaria,

Yes, he was the brother of the Lord and he was writing to the 12 tribes. He didn't understand the church like the apostle Paul. He was still steeped in the Law. His wording even is very Jewish. He talks about true religion... Christianity isn't a religion it is a relationship. That doesn't mean the book is null and void but it needs to be put into context. ALSO... Faith without WORKS IS dead. BUT that doesn't mean our Faith is null and void... just dead. When I'm not living right... my spiritual life dies, but the Holy Spirit NEVER leaves me. We must rightly divide the WORD.

[Tj3]

How does that jive with this verse, which seems to equate the faithful with those who diligently seek God?

I see nothing there that says that those seeking have already found Him. That would not make logical sense.

Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?

Believing God exists does not mean the same as believing in God.

James 2:19
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
NKJV

No. Therefore, if faith is needed to be saved. And there is no evidence of faith without works. Can we say that one who claims to be faithful is saved?

Agreed. The "claim" is not the same as having faith. But that still does not say that works are required before one is saved.

[Tj3]

St. James, the brother of the Lord to the Twelve Tribes in the Church, the New Jerusalem. We are all Spiritual Semites and the Church is the redemption of Israel.

That sounds a lot like the error of replacement theology (i.e. the belief that the church replaced Israel).

[De Maria]

DeMaria,

Hi.

We must rightly divide the WORD.

Well I definitely agree with that.

Yes, he was the brother of the Lord and he was writing to the 12 tribes.

The 12 Apostles of the Church now lead the 12 Tribes.

He didn't understand the church like the apostle Paul.

Unless you can point to a Scripture that says that the Apostle St. James, who walked and talked with the Lord whose mother is his aunt, I'd have to question your statement.

He was still steeped in the Law.

As was St. Paul, a Pharisee born of Pharisees.

His wording even is very Jewish. He talks about true religion... Christianity isn't a religion

Scripture is infallible. The epistle of St. James is Scripture. If Scripture says that Christianity is a religion and you deny that, whom should I believe?

it is a relationship.

No doubt.

That doesn't mean the book is null and void but it needs to be put into context.

It's a wonderful book which contradicts Luther's doctrines. That's why Luther considered it the epistle of straw. Do you share that attitude towards the Epistle of St. James?

ALSO... Faith without WORKS IS dead. BUT that doesn't mean our Faith is null and void... just dead.

I can't wrap my head around that one.

When I'm not living right... my spiritual life dies, but the Holy Spirit NEVER leaves me.

Then what gives life to your "spiritual life"? The Holy Spirit doesn't die, does it? Are you hooked up to another Spirit which I don't know about?

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

As I understand Scripture, if the Holy Spirit is in me, my spirit is alive. But if the Holy Spirit is not in me, my spirit is dead.

I hope that makes sense.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

That sounds a lot like the error of replacement theology (i.e. the belief that the church replaced Israel).

We don't believe that is an error.

Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rev 18 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The Church is the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem:
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

[classyT]

Demaria,

The Holy Spirit never leaves me. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. James was the Lord's brother... they have the same mother. AND... when I'm not feeding my spirit, doing the things that I know that I should, my faith is not active... kinda dead. That doesn't me the Lord leaves me... I just need to repent and get up and start over. James doesn't say Christianity IS a religion... so you should believe the Bible.