[Galveston1]

True, Jesus has not done what the Jews expected - - - - -yet!

As to the question of His divinity:

Rev 1:10-15
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
(KJV)

John recognized this Person as the Son of man, identifying Him as Jesus of Nazareth.

[sassyT]

I just want to say this was a wonderfully thought out post, and you are a much better writer than I am. I really hate to keep this going here because it seems I kind of took this away from the original question. What bothers me though, is the loose translation of Messiah that christians have. You guys think there is only or will be only one.

The word for savior in Hebrew is “Moshee’a’ah” which means “deliverer.” The word for “anointed” in Hebrew is “Mash’akh” which means “smeared” (with oil). The Greek Septuagint combined both meanings and came up with the Greek word, Messiah. Therefore, to be the Jewish Messiah, one has to be a DELIVERER (Savior), and one has to be ANOINTED with oil, and one major event must happen during the messiah's time on earth – there must be peace in Israel. Jews have always believed that the “Savior of Israel” would be a man of flesh and blood like themselves that would deliver them out of oppression, pain and suffering. There have been “saviors and “deliverers” throughout the history of Israel and many were even crucified on the cross. No where in the OT does it say it will take a second coming for what the Messiah is supposed to do. Thats why Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. There was things the Messiah is supposed to do that quite frankly Jesus did not do. King Hezekiah was very much considered a Messiah to the Jews because there was peace in the land(for awhile) and he was anointed. Almost every Jewish King could be called a Messiah.

I just think it should be remembered that the Jews expected a human and most of the time a military leader. Jesus didn't fill the requirements here because he was a demi god and he was no military leader. I would also like to point out that he was not anointed either

Onon, Many Jewish people reject Jesus as their Messiah because they don't take into account ALL the Tanakh prophecies concerning the Messiah.
Many Jews believe that the Messiah will establish a physical kingdom on earth and that Messiah will be simply a man and not God. However God is not just worried about giving the jews a king and an army general for their battles, He is more concerned about His entire creation.
Man was separated from Him in Genesis when they sinned against him. The word says the wages of sin is death. So from then on God's plan has been to reconsile man to himself and the way to do this is to atone man's sin. The Messiah's main perpose was to be God's suffering servent who is given as a sacrificial lamb to atone man's sin.
There are so MANY Old Testament Scriptures pertaining to the Messiah dying for the sins of the people. It was prophesied in Daniel that, "Messiah would be cut off" and "cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken..."
Isaiah Prophesied in Isaiah 53 that Christ would be led to slaughter like a lamb for the transgressions of man. Jesus Fulfilled every point of the Isaiah 53 prophesy and yet Jews still reject the notion that the Messiah is to die for the sins of man.
Christ will return as the Glorious King the Jews are expecting and will establish an earthly Kingdom in His seccond coming.

[sassyT]

Yes the text does lead to " Father of eternity"
But does it not seem convenient to change the translation from " eternal father when that rendering becomes complex to explain but retain the rendering Wonderful councilor rather than the Hebrew "wonderful in council" and to include the word GOD in mighty God instead of the Hebrew " Mighty one". There is not question that the word Elohim is a plural form but does not translate to Gods but to "Mighty Ones".. As Was indicated reflecting any who are in an exalted position..The Hebrew word that more nearly represents god is the word Baal.. But that is not used of the Almighty...

As for Immanuel That should rather be understood " the Mighty one among us"
" the mighty one With us"
Even the Greek word theos does not carry the same intent of divinity that Our English has come to mean ..
Jesus himself says Does not The Almighty call men gods..Taken from John.. Here he is reflecting off the idea that Judges were given divine authority..And its this that the Hebrew and Greek reflect in the usage of Elohim and Theos...They better infer ..One who is in dominion and is exalted..
Now I understand that most often the Word Elohim and Theos are indeed focusing upon the Almighty God, the One True God, the Father of all life, the Creator of the world.. But the word itself does not reflect this its the use and context that reflect the intent and focus..

As for John one
The text actually says..
Theos is the logos not the word is God...
Its mans interpretation od the grimmer that is being modified to present the rendering
The word is God..
But is actually written
God is the word.
Some conclude that the use of God here allows for its to be read
The word is a god
There is also the possibility that the leaving out of the article before theos makes it a subject to the word and would then read " The word is God"
But it can also be read as an adjective and read
Godly is the word..
The absolutism of the traditional reading does not inspire

Where are you getting Elohim from?? The word used in 9:6 is EL Gibor which IS translated The Mighty God. It does not mean Mighty one.
Wonderful in council and Wonderful Councilor means the same thing so what's your point?

Imanuel mean "GOD is with us" according to the Hebrew translation.
I don't know where you get your translations but they are seriously misleading you.

I think Galveston's verse says it all. There is no disputing this.

Rev 1:10-15
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
(KJV)

[yor1]

Part of verse 11 in revelation 1 is spurious...
In some texts it repeats the earlier verse 8 which refers to God.. But it is accepted by many as not belonging in verse 11

[yor1]

Your right it is El Gibbor but niether word reflects the almighty.. Both reflect one who is mighty... Most often used of the Almighty
As for Immanuel.. This does in fact not mean God is with us but one who is mighty is with us.. As I have siad the context determines whether it means The Almighty or not.. It is not the word itself that identifies the Almighty.. As these Words reflect other than the Almighty as given times..
Emanuuel.Immanuel... Was the identity given to Hezekiah.. And within that identity carried the identity of the Almighty as was common with names of kings..
And if one would like to take its use with Matthew God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself so the truth of the identity comes out in that alone one does not have to create a new thelory of a divine three part being to confirm its authenticity..

[sassyT]

Isaiah never prophesied about Jesus nor did anyone else in the OT. Another reason why this couldn't be is because (again) The Jews did not believe in Demi Gods therefore they would never have spoken about one eventually ruling the world.

Onon, You are obviously haven't really studied the Bible.
There are over 200 OT prophesies fulfilled By Jesus and out of all of them I think Isaiah 53 says it all.

. 1 Who has believed our message
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.



3 He is despised and rejected by men, (Luke 18:31-33)
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. (Mark 10:33-34, John 1:10-11)

4 Surely He has borne our griefs (Mathew 8:15-17)
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted. (John 19:7)

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, (Isaiah 53:8, Heb 9:28)
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him
And by His stripes we are healed. (1 Peter 2:24)

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth; (Matthew 26:63; Matthew 27:12-14; Mark 14:61; Mark 15:5; Luke 23:9; John 19:9)
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth. (Acts 8:32; Acts 8:33; Revelation 5:6)

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death, (Matthew 27:57-60)
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth. (1 Peter 2:22)

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

11 He shall see the labor of His soul,[b]and be satisfied. (John 10:14-18)
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, (Romans 5:18)

For He shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, (Philippians 2:9-11)
Because He poured out His soul unto death, (Mat 26:38; Mat 26:39; Matt 26:42)
And He was numbered with the transgressors, (Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37)
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

Who ever does not see Jesus all over this prophesy is in serious denial.

[sassyT]

part of verse 11 in revelation 1 is spurious...
In some texts it repeats the earlier verse 8 which refers to God..But it is accepted by many as not belonging in verse 11

Yor1, you seem like you are just in denial.

John says he heard a voice saying " i am the Alpha and the Omega..." and he said he turned looked and saw the Son of Man, Jesus.
It doesn't get anymore plain than that, so you can make all the excuses you want to avoid the truth of Christs Deity, but the word speaks for itself.

[sassyT]

Someone with common sense and basic understanding of language can easily see that Isaiah 53 can not possibly be referring to Israel. Why? Lets see

1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood. What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

2. The person mentioned in this passage suffers silently and willingly. Yet all people, even Israelites, complain when they suffer! Brave Jewish men and women fought in resistance movements against Hitler. Remember the Vilna Ghetto Uprising? Remember the Jewish men who fought on the side of the allies? Can we really say Jewish suffering during the holocaust and during the preceding centuries was done silently and willingly?

3. The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?

4. The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering." See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they might be forgiven. Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world? Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

5. The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of Israel have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.

Again Onon, your quest to avoid the inevitable truth of Messianic prophesy falls apart. I have just listed 5 reason why it can not possibly be Israel, I can list another 10 more if you want. The only person who can atone for the sin of the world is God's Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, who is the Sinless Pure Sacrificial Lamb of God described in Isaiah 53. Only a person with an agenda to avoid the truth of Christ will deny Isaiah 53 because it is so crystal clear and irrefutable.

[Galveston1]

Are you willing to take the word of Jesus Himself? Or are you like some who deny everything in spite of all the eyewitness accounts?

Matt 28:16-18
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
(KJV)

All means that nothing is left out. Jesus claimed all power in both realms. That equals deity.

[Fr_Chuck]

Some obvious attacking posts on Christian beleifs were deleted, I am sorry I have been busy over on the legal boards and have not checked in her and these seem to have gotten out of hand. So sorry that I have neglected this thread

Also the thread has gotten way off topic of the original question, keep that in mind also

[yor1]

Denial because I do not think the road leads to your conclusion?
One simple test for you
Show where in the Book of Acts that anyone was required to believe that Jesus was God in order to be saved..

Confess Him as Lord, Master, Ruler, King,
Believe that GOD raised him from the God..
These are the simple terms of the Gospel not the Nicene version..
One is not asked to confess him as God.. Lord here does not mean God nor doe sit mean YHVH but simple acknowledge him as the one who will have dominion over ones life..
He is to rule until all his enermy's are under his feet then he himself along with those who are his will kneel at the Throne of The Almighty.. 1 cor 15...
Denial.. it is only denial if there is some evidence that a thing is true..
There is none..
The point alone is that I do not acknowledge him as God but as Gods only Born son.. Sent by The God to redeem and reconcile mankind to The Almighty..
These are Biblical facts.. but the road to trinity is not it's a conclusion fostered by men.. in order to determine what is not written..
There is one God and One mediator between GOD and men. The man Jesus the Messiah..
The reason the jews do not accept the Christian Messiah is that they have transformed him into a God in equal substance rather than of equal standing with the Almighty..
This no Jew can accept and did not in the scriptures...
God is the eternal being who transcends all things and with whom we may enter a spiritual relationship.. Jesus is the one sent to bring into reality this reconciling.
Don't confuse the issue.. The issue is Reconciliation and service.. And Jesus is the mediator of this reconciling..
He is not the God to whom we are reconciled but the mediator between the God and Mankind..

That's the Gospel anything beyond this is of human making.. Its doing what Paul Calls preaching a different Gospel..
He is not speaking of a different Gospel from the one you hold but a different Gospel from the one he Preached.. and Jesus brought about

So sorry its not denial but recognition that you do not preach the Gospel when preaching Jesus AS God

[sassyT]

Yor1, it is denial because despite what the word says about Jesus you have coviniently found a way to twist scripture in order to suit your doctirne. You are now going off on a tangent because I never said anything about what you need to believe to be saved.

Your doctrine that Jesus is not God faces a lot of problems when we look to scripture. One big problem with your doctrine is that, IF Jesus is not God why does he allow people to worship him? Isn't One of the ten comandments not to worship no other GOD?
So by denying that Jesus is not God, you are essentially saying that Jesus was allowing people to break God's comandment by allowing people to worship HIM.

The Bible tells us:

As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
—Acts 10:25,26
Peter refused worship in light of the Law that said,

You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.

In Revelation 19:10, when the apostle John saw an angel, he said

I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See you do it not: I am your fellow-servant, and of your brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God.
Even the angel of the Lord refused to be worshipped.



Jesus' claim about Himself
John 8:58-59: "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I AM!' At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”

This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was “I AM” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14. His listeners again got the point, (i dont why you dont) and picked up stones to execute Him!

So really unless you have an agenda to preserve your doctrine scripture makes it crystal clear that Jesus is God. There are many verses showing that Jesus allowed Himself to be worshipped, simply because He was God "manifest in the flesh"

[Galveston1]

If the first assumption of the original question is correct, (it isn't) then there is no justification, atonement, or salvation. If Jesus is merely a man, or angel, then throw your Bibles away and forget about it.