[ladyvand3]

No. Once you are married you are married. You cannot go around having affairs. Pray for a change

[ordinaryguy]

In some ways I’m more emotionally dependent on this relationship as a whole - than on just him. What I mean by that is that there are many aspects of our relationship that I do not want to give up because/in spite of the issues we have.

Yes, a multi-year marriage develops a whole web of family and friends who know us as a couple, and while some of those relationships would survive a breakup in some form, many would not. Not to mention the good parts of the relationship, and the shared interests and activities... I do know what you mean. In a way, a partly unsatisfying marriage is a more difficult problem than one that's completely unsatisfying--at least that one's got an obvious solution.

I may be more dependent on an Idea of what he could be like than what he actually is like. I think there are a lot of us in similar relationships who do the same thing.

This is SO true. It's so easy to be blinded by our own vision of which personality traits reflect their "true" self, and which ones are "personality disorders" or "issues" that they need to "deal with". They almost certainly see it differently.

But I am also emotionally dependent on him because of my love and liking for him, which I do not want to give up. When I read what you said about him being like a black hole -- my first instinct was to defend him outright, but then I reluctantly had to agree that there is some truth to it. Not entirely, but some.

It’s true that he does not express affection or passion; and he avoids any form of intimacy. That is a huge part of a relationship. But he is incredibly considerate and caring in almost every other way. There are things he does for me and for us that leaves me in no doubt that he loves me. That does not excuse the fact that he is depriving me and us of one of the most basic reasons for a relationship.

What I'm having a hard time understanding is why would a man who is as kind and generous and considerate and caring as you say he is, be unwilling to even acknowledge, much less address in some constructive way, this huge elephant in the room of your marriage?

I do understand that the loss of sexual function can be a huge issue for a man, but if he really cares about your happiness and emotional satisfaction, then he ought to be able to understand that no erection does not have to mean no tenderness, no affection, no emotion, no passion, and no intimacy. I mean, this isn't such a difficult concept, is it? Even physical sexuality isn't limited to penile-vaginal intercourse; affection and intimacy are even less hostage to it. Is he so psychologically invested in his sexuality that he can't see beyond his physical limitations? So deeply insecure that he can't even approach the subject? So self-absorbed with his inner struggle that he doesn't see the damage his emotional shut-down is doing to you? I don't know. Do you?

Is that enough to let go of the relationship though?

Every day brings a new answer to this question. If sex were the only thing lacking, it might be tolerable. After all, sometime in the next 10 to 15 years, you'll go through menopause, and may not care as much about sex any more. But you'll still want and need intimacy and affection and tenderness.

That is a very interesting perspective, - to choose whether you let someone continually hurt you or not. It seems so simple and so logical. If only more people realized that, I believe that would make for a lot more happier relationships.

Do you think he's as concerned about hurting you as you are about hurting him?

[shykitte]

In a way, a partly unsatisfying marriage is a more difficult problem than one that's completely unsatisfying--at least that one's got an obvious solution.

You're so right about that.

What I'm having a hard time understanding is why would a man who is as kind and generous and considerate and caring as you say he is, be unwilling to even acknowledge, much less address in some constructive way, this huge elephant in the room of your marriage?

I don't know. It's like he's completely blocked off that part of our relationship. I think that its easy for him to just put his head in the sand and pretend there's no problem, hoping that if he ignores it, it will just go away... eventually.

Is he so psychologically invested in his sexuality that he can't see beyond his physical limitations? So deeply insecure that he can't even approach the subject? So self-absorbed with his inner struggle that he doesn't see the damage his emotional shut-down is doing to you? I don't know. Do you?

I've been trying to understand that for a while now. The closest I can think of is like when someone you love is physically handicapped in some way - if they're blind or deaf or missing an arm or leg... and the same way, this is like a mental handicap. And just like the physical one, this is often something that cannot be fixed. I guess he's fighting his own demons on that too, which I don't know about or don't fully understand.

The hard thing for me is accepting it because there are definitely some solutions to our problem. But for whatever reason, he can't or won't do anything about it.

You once said (in your very first post) that:

I'm not so sure that knowing why will change anything for the better.

I think about that once in a while.

Every day brings a new answer to this question. If sex were the only thing lacking, it might be tolerable. After all, sometime in the next 10 to 15 years, you'll go through menopause, and may not care as much about sex any more. But you'll still want and need intimacy and affection and tenderness.

10 or 15 years will go by before I realize it, and then I would be looking back and wondering why I made the decisions I did... right?

I always try not to regret any of the decisions I've made in my life; I accept even the wrong ones because I figure that they made me learn and be a better person. But... I still don't get all my years back.

Oh - I was curious: Once a woman has menopause, does she not care about sex any more? I thought that women would still be very interested even if they were past menopause.

Do you think he's as concerned about hurting you as you are about hurting him?

That's a hard question for me. I do believe that he's concerned for me... but like people get sometimes, he just puts off facing it. Since we're normal in so many ways and share a great companionship and friendship, I think that's good enough for him, and he assumes that its good enough for me - or maybe, that it should be good enough.

I haven't consciously thought about these things a lot till now because whenever I started to, I would break down. I felt so alone before. But it helps so much to talk about it here because I know that there are supportive people like you and everyone else; and that is very comforting. Even if there's not much I can do to make things work in my marriage, its still such a solace to me to discuss things here.

Thank you so much OG, and everyone else also.

[ordinaryguy]

I don't know. It's like he's completely blocked off that part of our relationship. I think that its easy for him to just put his head in the sand and pretend there's no problem, hoping that if he ignores it, it will just go away... eventually.



I've been trying to understand that for a while now. The closest I can think of is like when someone you love is physically handicapped in some way - if they're blind or deaf or missing an arm or leg... and the same way, this is like a mental handicap. And just like the physical one, this is often something that cannot be fixed.

Yes, I've settled on a similar strategy for coming to terms with it. The difference between a physical handicap and a mental/emotional one is that in those cases we always have to wonder if it's truly an inability to do something, in which case it can't be fixed, or is it an unwillingness, which may have its roots in past losses and disappointments, but has some hope of being changed into willingness, leading to effort and practice, to develop ability. I find it very hard to tell the difference, even within myself. But I do think the longer a person maintains an attitude of unwillingness, the more likely it is to solidify into real, intractable inability.

I guess he's fighting his own demons on that too, which I don't know about or don't fully understand.

If he won't share his struggles with you, there's no way you could be expected to understand.

The hard thing for me is accepting it because there are definitely some solutions to our problem. But for whatever reason, he can't or won't do anything about it.

You once said (in your very first post) that:

I'm not so sure that knowing why will change anything for the better.

I think about that once in a while.

After I posted those questions about "why would he be unwilling", I realized that I was sort of contradicting myself. After a long enough time, it doesn't really matter.

I always try not to regret any of the decisions I've made in my life; I accept even the wrong ones because I figure that they made me learn and be a better person. But... I still don't get all my years back.

I agree completely that wallowing in regret is what turns a mistake into a waste. And no, we don't get the years back, but sometimes we can glean a little wisdom in exchange.

Oh - I was curious: Once a woman has menopause, does she not care about sex any more? I thought that women would still be very interested even if they were past menopause.

I not medically qualified, but from what I've read it's quite variable. Some women seem to have little or no decline in sex drive, and at the other extreme, some lose interest altogether. That would be a good question for the Women's Health forum.

When I suggested to my wife that maybe I should see a doctor about my ED, she said, "Don't bother. I haven't been interested in years." Menopause may be partly to blame for her lack of interest, but probably not 100%.

That's a hard question for me. I do believe that he's concerned for me... but like people get sometimes, he just puts off facing it. Since we're normal in so many ways and share a great companionship and friendship, I think that's good enough for him, and he assumes that its good enough for me - or maybe, that it should be good enough.

If he read everything you've posted here, do you think he would he be hurt, or feel like it was a betrayal of the privacy of your marriage? I'm quite sure that my wife would feel hurt and betrayed if she read everything I've written about her and our marriage on AMHD. Do you think you've committed a betrayal, even though your intention may have been to help rather than hurt? I struggle with these questions.

I haven't consciously thought about these things a lot till now because whenever I started to, I would break down. I felt so alone before. But it helps so much to talk about it here because I know that there are supportive people like you and everyone else; and that is very comforting. Even if there's not much I can do to make things work in my marriage, its still such a solace to me to discuss things here.

Thank you so much OG, and everyone else also.

You're more than welcome. I myself have been helped and supported by the good folks here at AMHD, and I'm glad to have a chance to repay that debt in kind.

[talaniman]

At some point, I think you have to accept your circumstances, and be realistic in making a plan that makes YOU happy, and then go about putting that plan into actions, within the boundaries of what you consider to be positive, and healthy.

Sometimes we can't make others give us what we need, no matter how long we talk, and complain to them, but who is responsible for us anyway, but US? Okay, your partner isn't perfect, nor trying. Stop depending on them.

Kind of harsh, I know, but the truth is, I think it's a bad idea to completely expect someone to make you happy, when you should do that for yourself, especially when they are not capable or willing.

I can't really say what I would do under those conditions, that you find yourself in, other than, find something, or do something, to fill that whole in my soul.

The worst thing you can do is nothing.

[shykitte]

If he read everything you've posted here, do you think he would he be hurt, or feel like it was a betrayal of the privacy of your marriage? I'm quite sure that my wife would feel hurt and betrayed if she read everything I've written about her and our marriage on AMHD. Do you think you've committed a betrayal, even though your intention may have been to help rather than hurt? I struggle with these questions.

My husband tends to shy away from things that would bring up a discussion of what is lacking in our marriage. From hints that I’ve dropped, he knows I’ve been discussing his diabetic problems online -- Mr. Easy had some medical suggestions that I mentioned to my husband. I haven’t consciously hidden anything from him – but he prefers not to know. It’s the classic “ostrich with its head in the sand” syndrome. .

And so no, I don’t feel that I’ve committed a betrayal. You’ve talked about us “feeling betrayed by our spouses because of their unwillingness to resolve this problem, or at least improve it.”

At some point, I think you have to accept your circumstances, and be realistic in making a plan that makes YOU happy, and then go about putting that plan into actions, within the boundaries of what you consider to be positive, and healthy.

I can't really say what I would do under those conditions, that you find yourself in, other than, find something, or do something, to fill that hole in my soul.

The worst thing you can do is nothing.

Well, I haven’t really been idle (~or doing nothing….). :) There are things that I’ve been actively involved in by myself and also with my husband. Last year I joined salsa classes, and briefly yoga; and began learning Spanish; the year before it was painting and crochet! I find that all of those are great and pass time, but it doesn’t solve my problem, or really – fill that hole in my soul.

Talaniman, I said all that to disabuse you or anyone of the notion that I’m doing nothing else but mope about my husband. I know that you've been encouraging me to do things to make myself happy and content within myself - within these circumstances, so please understand that I am not refuting what you said, just clarifying things.

Sometimes we can't make others give us what we need, no matter how long we talk, and complain to them, but who is responsible for us anyway, but US? Okay, your partner isn't perfect, nor trying. Stop depending on them.

Kind of harsh, I know, but the truth is, I think it's a bad idea to completely expect someone to make you happy, when you should do that for yourself, especially when they are not capable or willing.

I totally agree that ultimately, the person responsible for making ourselves happy is us; and not anyone else, no matter how much someone loves us; no matter who we give (some) responsibility to make us happy….

But I do disagree that I completely expected my husband to be responsible for my happiness. I don’t think its fair to put that kind of responsibility or pressure on anyone. And also there are many things that make a person happy; not all of it is tied up in one individual's actions …or inaction.

I also wasn’t asking for perfection from him either, and I would not expect that from him; how can I when I’m not perfect myself?

But I don’t think it was too much to ask him to do Something – Anything, to resolve a serious issue in our marriage. And its not easy to just give up and accept defeat in making your marriage work.

Having said that, I do understand that its possibly too late for me, and that things are not going to be different, ever. Its just really difficult for me to write that.

[sylvan_1998]

I have been following this thread for a long time and posted something similar when I found this site.

My husband and I have been together almost 15 years now (married 13.5) and the intimacy was all but gone. I killed it in the first years and have been nurturing it since. I finally was tired and was giving up.

I was in the midst of deciding to have an affair. Safe, he would never know, my needs would be met, I would be happier, and in turn the family would be happier. Thankfully it never worked out and never happened.

Once I resigned myself to not look for intimacy with my husband, I think my husband woke up and decided to work on the intimacy he knew I was looking for. Since I was no longer "invested" I was happy and genuinely responsive in an innocent truthful way. And low and behold we found that intimacy again.

Now before I am blasted, I never hid anything from my husband except for my decision. He knew the guy, knew the guy had feelings for me, knew I was talking to him, and I think was concerned about the situation. He trusted me and let me be free to make this decision which I think ultimately kept me from breaking the vows of my marriage.

I guess what I want to share is the more you try to fix something's sometimes the more they break. Sometimes distance can be the cure. I do not know if my experience will work for anyone else, but it worked for me with some very happy results. Thankfully I survived a test I never thought I would survive - but that is another post.

[talaniman]

the more you try to fix somethings sometimes the more they break. Sometimes distance can be the cure.

Truer words have never been spoken, and I may have to steal them at a later date.

[xoxaprilwine]

@ xoxapril & Synnen: Lots of good advice, and you're both right about several things. Actually, we do travel a lot. Our jobs are very flexible, so we do get opportunities to get away often. But even if we have a good time, its like being with a buddy - not with a husband! On the surface, we have a nice marriage. But underneath all the ordinary stuff, I feel upset about our lack of intimacy and when it really bugs me I find that I try to pick a fight with him; but mostly I just go on as if everything was ok. I agree about the marriage counselor but like you said, he's very hard headed! I do have to figure out a way to go together or alone....

@ Choux: LOL at your comment!! :) Well, I don't want to divorce him, love him too much for that. As for having a affair, I did try.... I confided in an old friend who used to have a crush on me, and he was all for going ahead with a relationship (sneak out and have sex, basically...) but when he tried to kiss me, I couldn't kiss him back. It just felt awful and I couldn't do it! Maybe I just need some time, maybe I'm not attracted to him enough, I don't know. He's very affectionate and charming and sweet, but I really want MY guy, you know? Isn't that stupid!???

Just for the record, don't think what you did was right but I know exactly how you feel about “thinking” about infidelity when you are COMPLETELY neglected and it is not abnormal (we can have all the legal material/toys too but as a women I prefer to really enjoy the connection with someone/the real thing – I hate having sex alone)…you wanting to be with your guy is not stupid; you love him and your sad because you are not with him. I am surprised you went through with cheating but your vulnerable and frustrated; you feel unwanted and unattractive. The problem is when meaningless cheating evolves into emotional attachment, its not cheating; it's and affair. The last thing we need to do is contribute to the problem.

@ xoxapril: You said:-




Just to clarify, I haven't put any pressure on him for sex. I've tried to be as understanding as I can, and its been ...oh about 3 years since I've even mentioned it! I'm naturally very affectionate but he's not very physically expressive, and whenever I try to kiss or hug him, he puts on this long suffering face (like a joke) and lets me do it but he's never interested in doing any of that back at me!

Having said that, I do think your advice is excellent...and also your point about why he ignores the whole situation. I used to think that by me keeping quiet about all of this, he would come around himself and at least make an attempt to do something - even if there was no actual intercourse, something to just have fun... but now I realize its not going to happen, unless I do something. I hate taking the initiative though, its just not in my nature, but I know I can't expect him to so it'll have to be me.

I see that you have just “settled” for an “unhappy” marriage chances are so has he and by you not talking about it means you have given up discussing it with him but you're causing inner turmoil for yourself. For some reason when women don't talk about it men think it's OK with them or there is no problem…but it's not ever the case. Eventually it will lead to cheating or divorce if it is continued…and it did. Maybe he isn't ignoring it but rather he does not know he has a serious problem since you have given up and given in, not talking about it and doing nothing “ignoring” it only works for a short time. It does boil down to you though, how you want to deal with it, how you want to live your life…can you continue? Sure you can change yourself and build yourself up but can you really find it in yourself to continue the relationship and accept it for what it is? He has serious intimacy issues or essentially emotional issues…it seems like there is no emotional connection between you and him or a missing link. You have started pushing him away just as he has emotionally distanced you…greater distance is being obtained as a result of you feeling he is emotionally detached or “something missing”. Can you live with someone across the ocean even though they are sitting right next to you?…sex is one thing but not showing ANY sort of intimacy and emotional involvement shows to me a LACK of commitment. I have the intimacy but not the sex in my marriage which leads me to think maybe he has or is not being truthful and honest about something in the marriage. I get he has medical problems and that could be a very big underling factor but in the same aspect why the emotional disconnection? Why the distance? I just tried giving some suggestions about initiation but I don't honestly know if it will help, you really need to get him to counseling and be prepared to hear things you don't want to. This will be harder for you then it will be for him. “I won't settle living with a roommate but have, I don't need just a friend but I need a lover too” don't do this to yourself – its not fair to YOU…someone told me that it was just the next stage of marriage and to get use to it…get use to porn and toys…honestly I say screw that noise because if a marriage is truly healthy then couple grow “closer together” NOT “further apart”. You have tried initiating and you're not getting the responses you desire…why? Is he emotionally involved somewhere else? You can choose to cope…as I did for the “time being” but you have been coping for TOO long and don't know what you're dealing with. How can you be patient with a situation you don't even know what's going on? Riding it out will lead to worsen your problems. Communication is a factor but not the only one…its deeper then just communication…intimacy issues usually revolve around someone's inability to deal with real life situations/problems/responsibility in the relationship…but to be missing somewhere he has to be somewhere else.

@ ordinaryguy: I didn't think guys like you existed... :smile: ....other than in books and movies (mostly written by women~!). I totally agree with ChihuahauMomma with the *Wow*! :)

Most guys I know are wary of facing depth of any sort in a relationship. My husband would rather that I understand him and just...not talk about it. He would never want anything even remotely close to self-revelation (forget willing!), and in his case it would have to be extracted through careful manipulation, and of course without letting him know that I'm doing it!!!!!! ::laughing::

I'm not complaining. I love him for what he is. We've settled into a comfortable and functional marriage that works for us really well in many ways. I don't expect an intense love from him....BUT.... I would like to be candid and open about everything, including our intimacy issues. Even if we never have sex, I want us to be able to explore other options that we could enjoy instead. I want all the fun and frolic and uninhibited passion that is part of loving someone...

Unbridled is a great word.... I love all the images that brings up. In fact, I can sit and think - for an hour ot two -- of several things that I would love to do that are unbridled. ::laughing again here::

Sigh.

Anyway.....

I was curious, when you said that you've "known briefly - in other relationships..." - did you mean in other relationships you've had or other relationships you've observed?

I'm not complaining. I love him for what he is. – Yes you are complaining and you have every right to feel this way; ignoring it has obviously expired. Does he taking interest in your life? Or do you volunteer information? Or if you talk about yourself, does he listen or doesn't seem to care? Does he involve you in other areas of his life? Does he share important thoughts and feelings with you? Or give you just the facts without the emotions? You're his roommate…he knows your there, he's polite, he's considerate and that's about it. Is he your best friend? Or can you share deeper feelings with a friend then you can with him? (This leads to the cheating) I still strongly think he's emotionally involved somewhere else especially when sexual neglect or even just emotional neglect are apparent…you can have meaningless sex (even when married – it sucks). Is he a workaholic? Does he keep his finances and/or phone records separate from you? Is he open with you and tell you what he's been up to for the day (secretive)? Do you think that there is something about you he doesn't like but won't tell you? Again, don't listen to people who say that your/his age or the age of the marriage has an effect…that's non-sense, it doesn't and they have issues to work out as well…if you talk to people who have really good marriages, they will tell you that they grow closer everyday.

Your husband is filling that void in with something else and you have no idea why because you are afraid to talk about it. You need to speak up and get counseling or it will end up in a divorce…you know that friend of yours…keep him at a distance for now (which I think you have) until you can really work out how much of yourself you are ready to sacrifice. You have had a lot of awesome responses here and support…what are you going to do now? Plan. Take Action. Find Out What's Really Going On. Plan. Take Action. Follow Through. If It Fails. Follow Through Again. Never Loose Sight Of Your Objective. Objective should work for “both” of you and “mutually” agreed upon.

Best of luck – I didn't read through most of the posts so I hope this isn't redundant.

[shykitte]

Just for the record, don’t think what you did was right but I know exactly how you feel about “thinking” about infidelity when you are COMPLETELY neglected and it is not abnormal (we can have all the legal material/toys too but as a women I prefer to really enjoy the connection with someone/the real thing – I hate having sex alone)…you wanting to be with your guy is not stupid; you love him and your sad because you are not with him. I am surprised you went through with cheating but your vulnerable and frustrated; you feel unwanted and unattractive.

Hi April, I did NOT cheat on him. I was almost going to, but could not make myself do it when I was actually faced with the opportunity (which is what I said if you check my post). But I totally agree that having "someone/the real thing" is so very important; but not just for sex, but to be connected emotionally and mentally as well as physically.

Your post is extensive, and I think you've asked me some great questions. I cannot answer everything in detail now - because

1. I'll have to spend some time thinking about some of your questions; there are a few I don't want to face right now.

2. Some of it has already been discussed in this thread.

3. December is a hectic month and I may not have time.

But I appreciate the thought and effort behind your response and am very grateful. I'll try to clarify a few things: my husband is a diabetic. It seems to affect his sexual drive excessively; so his problem is really dealing with that and not another woman. I'm very sure that there is no other woman or interest in his life; he would not have the energy or passion to deal with yet another woman, I think (*smile**).

We have a great relationship in many ways and we're good friends in every sense except for our issues with intimacy. We talk easily, and share many things: interests, travel, viewpoints about religion, politics, causes etc. Honestly, I can say that he is a good husband in every way except being romantic or intimate. He does love me, and shows it in many ways.

As for what I'm going to do, I don't know. There really is no answer for the dilemma in my marriage. You're right, several people have given their opinions on here. But I have found out that more than an answer to my problem, they have given me a platform to discuss my problems and... vent, in a sense. Some of the actions recommended are not a solution for me; if you read through some of the later posts here, you'll understand. If I were to consider divorce, then things would be different but I'm not. I've vested too much emotionally in this relationship.

Once again, thank you so much for your post.

[shykitte]

Xoxaprilwine agrees: You don't have to give up anything for anyone if its important to YOU... I encourage you to look out for YOUR own best interests. NOT his... who are you living this life for anyhow?

:)

I totally agree. And I would say exactly the same thing to another person who was in my position. But because its me, and I hate to hurt anyone, especially someone I love, it's not quite so simple. I guess the best comparison would be a doctor who refuses to take his own medicine... :rolleyes:

However, I'll keep your advice in mind... not sure how I'll do it but I'll look out for hopeful options. Thanks so much April.

[talaniman]

Sometimes the only thing we can change is us, and the way we see things, or do things.

Just me, after more than 3 decades with the same person, I see that I have been blessed with what I have, and the things I don't, can be worked on in time, but the main thing is you see what you have.

You do seem to be doing that, and that's very good, so keep working for what you want, I do.

[shykitte]

Thanks, tal. Wow 3 decades! Good for you! :)

This forum has helped me so much. When I first came on here, I was feeling desperately helpless, but just talking about my problems has been a great relief.

I guess I had this idea that my marriage had to be good in every way; and I was prepared to do anything to accomplish that. When I was faced with these particular problems, at first I felt sheer disbelief that it was happening to me; then afterwards it was deep anxiety at the prospect of going through life without any kind of intimacy whatsoever.

The more I see people come in here and talk about relationships, the more I realize that most relationships are fraught with problems; and that there are only a few rare ones that go smoothly the way they are meant to. There seems to be no definite formula for a successful relationship except a sincere desire by both parties to work with each other and meet each other halfway. It would be so easy to go over the edge into depression. But you're right; I had to change myself, stop thinking of "us" and start thinking of "me." I'm still married but now I do more things for myself, and not quite so focused on what we don't have.

[talaniman]

Its no secret, once I took the attitude that the glass is half full, it changed a lot of things for the better.

[shykitte]

Yes, that is an interesting point of view; and very insightful.