[N0help4u]

No problem Linda. BTW : I like your birdie !

:)

Y thank you! :D
He is Yakky Doodle from Hanna Barberra cartoons late 50's early 60's
He was in Tom and Jerry, Snagglepuss and other cartoons of theirs. :)

YouTube - Subliminal Snagglepuss

[achampio21]

No need at all to apologize for that, Champ !!! You may believe from me whatever you like. And of course so may I !!!

Wrong : it is simply NOT up to anyone to decide if he/she chooses to BELIEVE in something or not. One does not DECIDE to believe something or not. Although outside influences can change someone's perception and ideas, belief is not something that you easily can influence.

Beliefs of any type require lot's of time to grow or change. Political beliefs are a good example of that : over a life time most people change from social/liberal to liberal/conservative.

So I disagree with your suggestion that "it is simply up to you to decide if/what you choose to believe" !

:)

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By saying it is up to you to decide I meant exactly what you said at first, that people are influenced by advertisements, other people, "miracles", propaganda, articles, freak incidents and just plain old every day life happenings. That is what I meant by up to you to decide. You choose whether or not you want to believe in all of those things or none of those things or to NOT believe at all. Do you see what I mean or am I being confusing? :confused:

You know that I support your choice to not believe in a "god". But I just mean that you had that right from the birth canal to choose and you obtain that right throughout your life to continue to choose. By keeping the same ideas, thoughts and/or beliefs or to change them whenever you want. You see?

[Credendovidis]

By saying it is up to you to decide I meant exactly what you said at first, that people are influenced by advertisements, other people, "miracles", propaganda, articles, freak incidents and just plain old every day life happenings. That is what I meant by up to you to decide. You choose whether or not you want to believe in all of those things or none of those things or to NOT believe at all. Do you see what I mean or am I being confusing?

My apologies if I misunderstood you. I know that people are daily bombarded with suggestions and all kinds of different forms of advertising.
But that is not what I meant. At least not in response to this specific topic that refers to a specific religious belief. I do not think that such a belief can be "advertised" into you. May be at an inter-religious level - lets say from one to another sub-Christian preference, but not from non-believer into theist.

Most non-believers have fought their freedom from religion, and are still fighting that, against the flood of religious interfering and intolerance all around us. So most non-believers are sub-conscious primed against religious interference. And next to that : belief in a supra-natural deity demands submission to some entity, for which no OSE exists. And that is surely one step too high for a non-believer. That requires more than just advertising : it requires a different world view, a different state of mind.

You know that I support your choice to not believe in a "god". But I just mean that you had that right from the birth canal to choose and you obtain that right throughout your life to continue to choose. By keeping the same ideas, thoughts and/or beliefs or to change them whenever you want. You see?

I did not CHOOSE not to believe. Growing up in a tolerant Christian family my non-belief started around the age of 10 from deep within my subconscious mind - not my reasoning - and soon the thought that religion had no validity appeared, and the reality (the lacking OSE) confirmed that new view. At the age of 12 I realized that most of my family had been slaughtered because of their religious views. That religion was the cause of many human tragedies. That religious organizations were co-responsible for human massacres, and/or had condoned that intolerance for many hundreds of years, yes even had been at the basis of all that violence. From the crusades to inquisition to witch persecution to direct involvement in - and support of - genocide.

As I stated : my mind concluded from the lacking OSE that religion had no validity. That there can't be an entity that supports violence and murdering (as per OT). That a supra-natural benevolent and omniscient deity has no need for worship and submission. That a loving "father" welcomes ALL "his" children, no matter how they behaved, and that a "father" who has a "hell" for those who question "his" existence is not a loving "father" but the bloodthirsty god from the OT. The end conclusion was that any religious ideology has to be wrong, and that no supra-natural entities exist.

Many non-theists have similar experiences. Can you understand now why so many non-believers can not be converted into theists - even if they wanted that , and no matter what religious pressure or advertising is coming their way? What choice do they really have? None as far as I am concerned.

Peace Champ, peace !

:)

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[achampio21]

My apologies if I misunderstood you. I know that people are daily bombarded with suggestions and all kinds of different forms of advertising.
But that is not what I meant. At least not in response to this specific topic that refers to a specific religious belief. I do not think that such a belief can be "advertised" into you. May be at an inter-religious level - lets say from one to another sub-Christian preference, but not from non-believer into theist.

Most non-believers have fought their freedom from religion, and are still fighting that, against the flood of religious interfering and intolerance all around us. So most non-believers are sub-conscious primed against religious interference. And next to that : belief in a supra-natural deity demands submission to some entity, for which no OSE exists. And that is surely one step too high for a non-believer. That requires more than just advertising : it requires a different world view, a different state of mind.


I did not CHOOSE not to believe. Growing up in a tolerant Christian family my non-belief started around the age of 10 from deep within my subconscious mind - not my reasoning - and soon the thought that religion had no validity appeared, and the reality (the lacking OSE) confirmed that new view. At the age of 12 I realized that most of my family had been slaughtered because of their religious views. That religion was the cause of many human tragedies. That religious organizations were co-responsible for human massacres, and/or had condoned that intolerance for many hundreds of years, yes even had been at the basis of all that violence. From the crusades to inquisition to witch persecution to direct involvement in - and support of - genocide.

As I stated : my mind concluded from the lacking OSE that religion had no validity. That there can't be an entity that supports violence and murdering (as per OT). That a supra-natural benevolent and omniscient deity has no need for worship and submission. That a loving "father" welcomes ALL "his" children, no matter how they behaved, and that a "father" who has a "hell" for those who question "his" existence is not a loving "father" but the bloodthirsty god from the OT. The end conclusion was that any religious ideology has to be wrong, and that no supra-natural entities exist.

Many non-theists have similar experiences. Can you understand now why so many non-believers can not be converted into theists - even if they wanted that , and no matter what religious pressure or advertising is coming their way? What choice do they really have? None as far as I am concerned.

Peace Champ, peace !

:)

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Wow. I never thought about all of that.
The part I highlighted makes perfect sense. I totally agree with you on that way of thinking. I guess when you relate it to having your own children and what you would do for them and to them it seems a little odd some of the things that happen. And I have stated before that I totally believe that a major part of religion was established as a form of control and a way to give "logical" reasons for war as you mentioned. If it is in the name of "god" everyone will understand right? :rolleyes:

I am sorry for your losses and I understande completely where you are coming from and the difference between subconcious and reasoning. I apologize for mincing words. And I take back some of what I said being that I didn't fully understand what I was saying myself.

But as for me, I stated once before... I believe in a god for my own personal reasons. If I didn't believe that I would have to ultimately pay for my consequences here on earth when the end comes, I would prob do a lot of horrible things to a lot of people that deserve it. So in my mind, believing that being good on earth will get me to a heaven where I can see my husband and kids for eternity makes me want to continue to be good. (the control thing I mentioned) and even if I am wrong, I feel like I am making the "right" decision. And I am a little curious as to how we all got here if there isn't a god...

[Credendovidis]

The part I highlighted makes perfect sense.

I'm glad you feel that way. You seem to be one of the few here who understands the underlying reasons for my unbelief.

I am sorry for your losses and I understand completely where you are coming from and the difference between subconscious and reasoning.

It was important to me early in life, when the mental scar was fresh. By now the negative feelings against Germans have faded away. Those living now had little to do with what happened in the past. Time healed almost all wounds.
The difference between subconscious thinking and reasoning are important for understanding why religious belief is something one can not just switch on or off.

I apologize for mincing words. And I take back some of what I said being that I didn't fully understand what I was saying myself.

Thanks, but really no need for that. I understand how difficult it has to be for Christians and other theists to understand why I think the way I do. What I do not understand is the deliberate intolerance by so many here, as if people think that their intolerance will change my views.

But as for me, I stated once before... I believe in a god for my own personal reasons.

No problems with that at all. You are free to believe whatever you prefer to believe!

And i am a little curious as to how we all got here if there isn't a god...

Well, for that are the discussions on abiogenesis and evolution as alternatives to religious claims.

Salam champ, peace !

:)

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[Credendovidis]

Would it not be a possibility that those who do not walk with Christ be those that are born again to walk the earth, again, until the judgment day; that those who walk with Christ be those which might ascend to heaven more swiftly when they die, to walk with him until the judgment day?

I do not really understand your position here. What do you think the essence of Christianity really is? The "saving" of so many as possible "souls", or to look after the interests of one group of followers only ? Can you please explain your position ?

What might be the consequences of us all who walk on the earth, if perhaps a stray few are born and find it inside themselves to walk with christ, bringing with them several people in small handfuls, but the majority who walk on the earth, presently, are perhaps re-incarnations of those individuals who never held belief in the singular and secular faiths of christianity?

Are you perhaps afraid that "heaven" will be too small ? And re-incarnations as part of Christianity : how is that ?

Salam !

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