[De Maria]

Okay. Good point.

Thanks.

I guess I just wonder about the writings in the bible. Because I know for a fact that the leaders of churches can and do abuse religion to profit just like some of the people in the tabloids.

Correct.

So I just wonder if some of the bible is exaggerated to benefit someone. It IS possible,

Correct.

but I am finding out that basically the christian religion is based on faith and the scripture. But you have to have faith that the scripture you read is real or it means nothing.

For Catholics, it is also the Church and Tradition:
80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 80

97 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God" (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 97

And what I think I know of catholics is that they focus more on the saints and Mary and not so much on Jesus. Is that right?

Not quite. Briefly, Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 4 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

We follow the Saints because they are proven imitators of Christ:
James 5 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

And why is there such a broad difference between catholics and christians if you both basically believe in the same things?

It is a matter of emphasis. As it pertains to non-Catholics I am speaking from opinion only. They seem to emphasize the right to interpret Scripture according to their personal values alone. Whereas, Catholics interpret Scripture according to the Traditions which have existed from the time of Christ.

HAHA! I just realized something reading back over my posts!! I kind of sound like a 4 or 5 year old asking mommy and daddy how babies get here!!
Sorry. I just thought laughing at myself would be funny for everyone!! :))

It is really sweet and humble. Thanks for the opportunity to answer your questions.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[achampio21]

Thank you De Maria for taking the time to answer them. I have millions more as do lots of people but I kind of started this question in reference to another thread and was advised to move this discussion to another board.

I want to thank EVERYONE for answering me with their own opinions and beliefs.

It is VERY fascinating to me how very different everyone is and yet we all breathe the very same air and we all have blood and we all are born and we all die. It is simply amzing to me how so many people that are fundamentally the same can have such totally different views. Someday maybe the truth will come out and everyone may find that everyone was wrong or everyone in some small way was right. I don't know.

But I do KNOW that whoever or whatever gave me this heart and this brain and my babies is truly awesome and I could NEVER thank him/her/it enough for the chance to experience this life and all that it has given/showed me.

( but I will say one more time... I LOVE THIS SITE!! )

[holly_penyo]

The bible states jesus' body and spirit ascended into heaven. Leaving nothing behind.

[Credendovidis]

I believe Fr. Chuck is a moderator on this forum. What gives you more say than he as to what is acceptable on this forum? Are you a moderator also? And if so, do you outrank Fr. Chuck?

You do not seem to understand the function of a moderator. A moderator makes sure everything on a board runs as per the rules. It does not provide him with heavenly insights. When he posts questions or replies here, he is just like you and me. Fr_Chuck is a human being, he is also AMHD moderator, but he is not the Pope !

And, non-religious people frequently don't believe that God exists. Yet, they can't prove that God exists. That is an opinion, not a fact.

Non-religious people do not have to prove that God does not exist. They do not claim what is called "a positive". The real claim is one made by believers, and they can not provide any objective supporting evidence for their claim. Don't reverse the order of evidence obligation.
Note that for me you do not have to prove anything, but in that case accept whatever you state as being a claim, instead of being "the one and only truth" !

... As believers in God, we see a wonderful world which presence can only be explained by the wisdom of God.

You BELIEVE that that can only be explained by (the wisdom of) God.
The point is that you can not prove that. So you BELIEVE , i.e. you CLAIM that. It is just your opinion !

... I don't know what variation of non-belief you subscribe to, so I'll withhold comment until you divulge your beliefs.

I am a Secular Humanist, married for already for a "blessed" 39 years to a very active Roman Catholic - who is involved in pastoral work and religious children education. I even married in church, after a detailed explanation of my non-religious position to the priest. I did that out of respect for my than wife-to-be and her views. We never had an argument on religious issues, although we frequently discuss religious and her pastoral activities.

Your problem is that you show little respect for any world view other than your own, and you show that position frequently in your postings.

Scripture, the Gospels in this case, are the eyewitness testimony of Jesus' contemporaries who witnessed His Resurrection.

There is no real objective supported evidence that these testimonies are TRUE.
There is even doubt about the resurrection, about Jesus' existence, about the entire Christian claim. That is, if you look further than just BELIEF in all these claims.

Jesus, the Christ, is the anointed One. He is a person.

Your are showing with your own words that you are now word-playing here.
Jesus was a person - at least I will accept that. There is no objective supported evidence that Jesus was the anointed one - a religious title and unproven CLAIM.

Actually, there are literally volumes. Besides the volumes in the Bible, there are the customs and cultures who have preserved his place of birth, of suffering, of preaching, of crucifixion and much other information to substantiate the written and oral accounts.

I clearly asked for objective supporting evidence. This is not. At best it is subjective based support for all the claims. Cultural habits and ties are no objective supporting evidence for any religious claims.

Really? You seem quite interested in disproving His existence.

There you start again with your disrespect ! I do not try to disprove anything. I merely ask you to either prove your religious claims with objective supported evidence, or accept that whatever you BELIEVE is BELIEF, and not the "one and only truth".

So if you aren't interested, why do you care?

Because you and many like you tend to misuse (their own personal version of) religion to threaten the freedoms of non-religious people. History shows that religious people tend to force their personal believe onto others.
I care, because I support your and others need for freedom of religion, but note that many like you fail to extend that freedom to freedom from religion.
If you focus on the US situation, recent history shows the influence of religion on worldly affairs (presidential elections for instance). Also non-believers living in the center of the biblebelt have huge problems finding a job. There clearly is a bias by religious people outside religious affairs for "their own", and that is undemocratic and unfair.

There is objective evidence for all of that. You just don't accept the evidence. Two different things.

Strange than, that every time I ask for that objective supported evidence I only get subjective support for a BELIEF. I wonder why that is. :)

Everything is based on belief. You have your set of beliefs which includes your belief that Christ did not exist.

NOT TRUE ! The word BELIEF means that it is a position for which there is no supporting evidence.
As a Secular Humanist I do not BELIEVE in myths and wild religious claims.
I have no opinion for or against Jesus' existence, though I accept that he as a human being can have existed. As to Jesus Christ : that is a religious claim, and has to be proven by those who agree with that position. So far objective supporting evidence for the following never has materilized :
- (The Christian) God exists and is the Creator.
- God is in fact the creator of the Bible, and the Bible is his word.
- Jesus is the son of that God.
- Jesus as son of God, together with the Holy Spirit, is part of God (the Trinity).

So I suggest you do your homework and prove these 4 points to me and all other non-religious people. No problem if you can't or don't. I (we) all know that you BELIEVE that all !

Well, the Bible is already objective evidence. But we also have the Church and the many teachings of Christ which have been carried by Tradition. And the artifacts left from His time on earth and many other things which we can discuss.

All subjective claims. None of that even smells like anything objective. Conclusion : you simply BELIEVE that. Fine with me. But than whatever you BELIEVE is just BELIEF, and far from the "one and only truth" !

Sincerely also,

Credendovidis

[Credendovidis]

But I do KNOW that whoever or whatever gave me this heart and this brain and my babies is truly awesome and I could NEVER thank him/her/it enough for the chance to experience this life and all that it has given/showed me.

Yes. Wonderful is it not how nature by means of abiogenesis and evolution developed from non-living materials to whatever lives today ! What a pleasure to be part of this all , even if it is only for such a relative short period. And what a privilege to pass on your genes into future human generations, giving a meaning to your life even after death.

I LOVE THIS SITE!!!!!)

Hear, hear, hear!! How right you are on that one !

:)

[achampio21]

Credendovidis, you are such a delight to discuss topics with!! You have just as much heart in your beliefs( or maybe non-beliefs :)) as I do. I enjoy that about you. Thank you for the pleasure of this discussion!!

I have been enlightened more than you or anyone else could possibly know! :)

[De Maria]

You do not seem to understand the function of a moderator. A moderator makes sure everything on a board runs as per the rules. It does not provide him with heavenly insights. When he posts questions or replies here, he is just like you and me. Fr_Chuck is a human being, he is also AMHD moderator, but he is not the Pope !

Yeah, but I think the "administrator", the Head Moderator in Charge pretty much put you in your place when he called your messages "rubbish!" So for all your bluster, you have no say here.

Non-religious people do not have to prove that God does not exist. They do not claim what is called "a positive".

Well, yes, they do. They claim that everything they see came to be on its own. Since we don't see anything that creates itself, they claim a positive which is disproved by the evidence.

The real claim is one made by believers, and they can not provide any objective supporting evidence for their claim.

Certainly we can. We see that all creatures which exist are intelligently. Logically speaking, this is impossible unless an Intelligence created them. If I find a watch on the ground, I don't ask, when did it create itself? I ask, who made it?

By the same token, when you want a car, you don't wait on it to create itself in your garage. You go out and buy one that has already been built by a car maker.

So, we believe in God because we see what He has created.

Don't reverse the order of evidence obligation.

Oh my, have I broken a rule. What authority have I violated?

Note that for me you do not have to prove anything

That is simply because you claim not to care. But you contradict yourself by your very passionate defense of what you believe. And then your insistence of our presenting proof, which we do and then you deny.

So, you ought to make up your mind what your really want before you write one of these messages.

, but in that case accept whatever you state as being a claim, instead of being "the one and only truth" !

God is the Truth.

My claim is one that I can prove. Whether you accept the proof is your business.

You BELIEVE that that can only be explained by (the wisdom of) God.

And you BELIEVE that that can be explained by your wisdom. But you are wrong and have yet to provide any positive proof of any of your claims.

The point is that you can not prove that.

I have. But by your God given free will, you have denied the proof.

So you BELIEVE , i.e. you CLAIM that. It is just your opinion !

Yes, but it is a belief, claim and opinion I can prove. Unlike yours, for which you have provided no solution as yet except denials of ours.

I am a Secular Humanist, married for already for a "blessed" 39 years to a very active Roman Catholic - who is involved in pastoral work and religious children education. I even married in church, after a detailed explanation of my non-religious position to the priest. I did that out of respect for my than wife-to-be and her views. We never had an argument on religious issues, although we frequently discuss religious and her pastoral activities.

Congratulations! You're a lucky man:

When I met my girlfriend who is now my wife of 23 years, she was Catholic and I was atheist. At first, I resolved I would show her the error of her ways. But then a thought occurred to me, why should I take from the woman I love something which she loves and obviously comforts her? And since I firmly believed that God did not exist, what harm could it do for her to believe? We would both wind up in exactly the same place, the grave. Then the Scripture was proven true:

1 Cor 7 13 And if any woman hath a husband that believeth not, and he consent to dwell with her, let her not put away her husband. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy.

Your problem is that you show little respect for any world view other than your own, and you show that position frequently in your postings.

Actually, I think that describes you. I'm not the atheist trying to rob believers of their faith with no evidence to support my arguments. If you are really an atheist, what do you care if we believe? If you are right, we are going to wind up in the same place, food for worms. But if we are right,. Is that what you're afraid of?

As for me, I treat with respect anyone who treats me with respect.

There is no real objective supported evidence that these testimonies are TRUE.

Eyewitness testimony is accepted in every court in the world. Mulitple eyewitness testimonies supporting each other are considered invaluable in every court in the world.

There is even doubt about the resurrection, about Jesus' existence, about the entire Christian claim.

Only with people like yourself who cast doubt on anything which you don't want to believe simply because you don't want to believe it.

That is, if you look further than just BELIEF in all these claims.

I have.

Your are showing with your own words that you are now word-playing here.

Nope. You are showing with your own words that you really have no ground to stand on. You're reaching, but there's nothing to grab hold of because you don't even know why you don't believe.

Jesus was a person - at least I will accept that.

That's a start.

There is no objective supported evidence that Jesus was the anointed one - a religious title and unproven CLAIM.

The same evidence that proves He was a person proves He was the Anointed One. The same people who witnessed His Life, also witnessed His miracles and heard the Voice of God proclaiming Him The Son.

I clearly asked for objective supporting evidence.

All the evidence I have presented is objective. It is your attitude of rejection which is subjective. It is as your name says, Credendovidis. If you don't see it you don't believe it. That leaves very little to believe. According to that attitude, when you came into being, the world came into being. Since you never saw Caesar, he didn't exist. Since you didn't see Washington, he didn't exist. Pretty sad, actually.

This is not. At best it is subjective based support for all the claims. Cultural habits and ties are no objective supporting evidence for any religious claims.

Why yes, they are. It is the footprint. Jesus came and taught. People learned these lessons and put them into practice. These people know precisely who was the originator of these lessons and point to Him.

There you start again with your disrespect !

Moi? So you're not trying to disprove His existence? Let me reword it then, "Really, you seem quite interested in disproving His Divinity?"

I do not try to disprove anything.

If that is true, its because you accept the fact that you can't.

I merely ask you to either prove your religious claims with objective supported evidence, or accept that whatever you BELIEVE is BELIEF, and not the "one and only truth".

Well, that would be a lie wouldn't it? Why would I lie to myself?

I believe that God is Truth. I also believe my evidence is objective which supports my belief in Him. So, why should I allow you to coerce me into saying something which isn't true?

The problem, in my opinion, is that the existence of God and of people who can prove His existence bothers you. Because you know the consequences of not believing in the Being who created you.

Because you and many like you tend to misuse (their own personal version of) religion to threaten the freedoms of non-religious people. History shows that religious people tend to force their personal believe onto others.

History proves that SOME religious people have done that. But more frequently, history has proven that ATHEISTS are both more violent, more cruel and more efficient at destroying entire nations of people for their beliefs.

History also proves that Christians have developed the caring, fair and just societies in this the history of the world.

I care, because I support your and others need for freedom of religion, but note that many like you fail to extend that freedom to freedom from religion.

Really? Please show me where I or any Christian on this forum have curtailed your freedom not to believe in God. As I see it, the only thing to which we object is being insulted. Something which happens quite frequently on these forums when atheists find yourselves holding your tongue in your hands watching your arguments dissolve like castles of sand on the beach as the waves destroy them.

If you focus on the US situation, recent history shows the influence of religion on worldly affairs (presidential elections for instance). Also non-believers living in the center of the biblebelt have huge problems finding a job. There clearly is a bias by religious people outside religious affairs for "their own", and that is undemocratic and unfair.

Again, you are proving that atheists don't even know how to follow simple rules. Is this thread about bias in government or bias in religion or bias in elections? If it is, please inform me and I'll continue the discussion. Otherwise stick to the subject at hand.

It is another distinctive of atheists on this forum that when they feel they are losing an argument, they CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

Strange than, that every time I ask for that objective supported evidence I only get subjective support for a BELIEF. I wonder why that is. :)

Apparently you can't tell the difference. When you can prove that eyewitness testimony is considered subjective or if you can prove that eyewitness testimony is not allowed in court, let me know.

NOT TRUE ! The word BELIEF means that it is a position for which there is no supporting evidence.

Oooooh, red? Getting passionate about something about which you don't claim to care?;)

Which dictionary are you using? This is what Webster says:

Be·lief Listen to the pronunciation of belief
Pronunciation:
\bə-ˈlēf\
Function:
Noun
Etymology:
Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelēafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lēafa; akin to Old English lȳfan — more at believe
Date:
12th century

1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
belief - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Take special note of number three which I highlighted for you.

As a Secular Humanist I do not BELIEVE in myths and wild religious claims.

As a faithful Catholic, neither do I.

I have no opinion for or against Jesus' existence,

Then what are you doing on this thread?

though I accept that he as a human being can have existed.

Good.

As to Jesus Christ : that is a religious claim, and has to be proven by those who agree with that position.

We have provided the evidence. If the evidence does not convince you, so be it. You have freedom of will and conscience, believe what you will.

So far objective supporting evidence for the following never has materilized :
- (The Christian) God exists and is the Creator.

Sure it has. You just deny the evidence.

- God is in fact the creator of the Bible, and the Bible is his word.
- Jesus is the son of that God.
- Jesus as son of God, together with the Holy Spirit, is part of God (the Trinity).

Again, the tactic is clear. Since you can't hold up your argument on one theme, you muddy the waters by injecting many themes which weren't being discussed. Don't you think that before we go into whether God inspired the Bible, you must first accept the premise that God exists?

That just seems basic logic to me. So if that logic makes sense to you, then your tactic is clear, you are simply introducing "straw men" in order to draw attention from the fact that you have lost this argument.

So I suggest you do your homework and prove these 4 points to me and all other non-religious people. No problem if you can't or don't. I (we) all know that you BELIEVE that all !

I'd love to go into detail on any of those subjects. However, this thread is about "where did His body go?"

All subjective claims. None of that even smells like anything objective.

Perhaps, but at least I tried to prove my claims.

Conclusion : you simply BELIEVE that. Fine with me. But than whatever you BELIEVE is just BELIEF, and far from the "one and only truth" !

That's called "projection".
Projection
Projection is attributing your own repressed thoughts to someone else.
Changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/projection.htm - 22k -

First study the meaning of the word "believe". Apparently, you go around believing things that don't make sense. But I don't. First, I expect things to be proven to me. Once they are proven to me, then I believe them.

So, although you expect your "beliefs" to be unproven. I am not like you.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Yes. Wonderful is it not how nature by means of abiogenesis and evolution developed from non-living materials to whatever lives today !

You have proven the Believers claim and you don't even know it. Obviously, nothing can create itself. So, since you don't want to give credit to God, you give credit to "nature".

What a pleasure to be part of this all ,

Quite. "Pleasure" a spiritual good also given us by God.

even if it is only for such a relative short period.

For you. For those of us who give credit to God, we look to eternity of joy and happiness in His Presence.

And what a privilege to pass on your genes into future human generations, giving a meaning to your life even after death.

That is true. But even more wonderful, the good news that you will if you accept God's goodness, get to share life in His Presence with all those whom you love even after death of the body on this earth. A privilege given us by God who created nature and all the wonders around us.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Okay. Awesome. So far I have found out this much...

Hi, I missed this message before. I'd like to attempt to answer these questions.

In the christian religion Jesus died on the cross, was buried, rose from the dead and his body and all went to Heaven.

Body and Spirit. Correct.

In atheist religion well I pretty much have figured that they don't believe in anything. They live day to day and believe they can for the most part control their destiny.

I have also found that religion is a pretty vague and VERY broad subject.

Vague? How so?

Or do you mean varied and broad? I would agree with that.

As I stated earlier I believe in a higher power. God is the title I choose. I believe in Him for my own reasons.

Excellent!

The bible to me is a man made structure that just like any man-made structure has been altered, changed, and made to fit the conditions of a particular time-frame. And with time will break down just like any other man-made structure.

Fair enough. But the New Testament has remained unchanged now for about 2000 years. The Old Testament for about 3000. And oral tradition on the Old Testament even longer.

That is pretty remarkable considering the rudimentary tools they had back then.

Now I'm not saying the whole thing is a sham, but I have serious doubts in a majority of it's content. Just like how the old and new testament contradict themselves.

Perhaps studying the Bible might help. Here's a website I recommend:
Welcome to the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology

Scott Hahn has a way of making the most boring stuff, very interesting.

I think everyone should and can believe in whatever they want.

Agreed.

But I have a lot of questions and doubts that talking to preachers and the like haven't answered. Just about every christian I talk to wants to kind of walk around my questions and direct me to the bible. But I know I have found contracdicting scripture on several subjects.

If you ask the question here, we can try to answer. Which verses confuse you?

Where it will say one thing in one part and the opposite in another part. Not to mention the bible itself is written like a legal agreement with any court is written... confusing. It can't just say...

God is God. Here is what He did. Here is what He made. Here is a son that He created. Here is what his son did. And now the same people that worshipped Him have had Him killed. Oh, and now He is alive again. And there He goes to be with God. But He will be back someday.

That's a good summary. Does it sound incredible to you? Is that the problem?

No it was written so 500 people could take it's meaning completely out of context and debate it and argue certain views. It was written so that you could 20 different religions all based on one freakin book. But every single one of them believe differently.

No. It wasn't written so that 500 people could each read it differently. It was written in human language by human beings with human limitations. We have yet to invent a language which can't be misinterpreted by many people.

If you are American, you have a good example in American government. The founding Fathers were very wise to create a document, the Constitution, which listed all our laws. But they were even wiser not to let every single individual interpret it in their own way. They created a branch of government which was supposed to interpret the Constitution according to the intent of the Founding Fathers.

God did the same thing with the Bible. Originally, the Moses and the Levites were the ones who interpreted His Will.

Exodus 19 9 The Lord said to him: Lo, now will I come to thee in the darkness of a cloud, that the people may hear me speaking to thee, and may believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

In the Old Testament, God left a hierarchy behind to administer His Church:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

I just don't get it. I think it is perfectly OK for me to believe in God and not go to church and not give money to a church that will abuse it anyway. And I don't need everyone praying for me because if he hears everyone He can hear me by myself just fine.

As I mentioned in our previous conversation, our religion not only teaches faith in God but also faith in man. God revealed Himself to men in order that men may lead us to God. Its not a trip which we make on our own, but on the blood and shoulders of those who came before us.

So I don't know. I am just asking questions and getting feedback. I guess if the Christian faith believes that Jesus' body and all went up to Heaven my next questions would be: where is Heaven

Heaven is not a physical place but a Spiritual reality. Jesus body was spiritualized after the Resurrection therefore He could do both the physical and the spiritual:

1 Corinthians 15 44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written:

and how long until Jesus got there and if he was alive enough for people to touch him then he was still "alive" when he went to Heaven right.

Correct. Death is part of life. When we pass from this life we simply go to the next:

John 5 24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.

And if that is the case then can he walk in Heaven or did he change to a spirit when he got there?

This is just speculation. His Body is Spiritualized so He can walk on earth. But whether anyone can or needs to walk in heaven is doubtful because we believe heaven is beyond time and space. If there is no space, there is nothing to walk upon nor any reason to walk.

where in the bible does it answer those questions? I mean it can go on and on.

2 Corinthians 5 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2 9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.

Okay, I found this on the board that firmbeliever directed me too. And I really liked it so I am copying it here because it won't let me quote user that way... or I just don't know how yet.. lol

Originally posted by michaelb on different board for different question:

"Why would you believe? There have been so many gods over the course of humanity that we can't even keep count. Why does anyone of them deserve your worship more than the other."

I went through much the same experience which you have expressed. I was an atheist for many years when my wife conceived our first child. Before that time, I had never seen any evidence of the existence of God. When my wife conceived, the thought occurred to me that all I did was make whoopee with my wife and suddenly a living breathing creature was produced?!

How wonderful is that?

More than that, I realized I only enjoyed the process. I did nothing else to bring it about. When I build a fence, I dig holes, nail boards, usually in the heat of the day and it's a very difficult business. But here the most wonderful thing in the world was being produced BY ME? And yet I had nothing to do. I didn't put the arms in place, the head, the muscles the nerves, NOTHING. I was simply the recipient of a wonderful gift.

And I can't look at my children and say, "no intelligence went into producing this." The intelligent design is obvious. There is absolutely no doubt that a Being created them with purpose and wisdom.

So, I went from not believing in God to believing in God, virtually overnight.

The next problem was which God. I looked around and considered Islam, Hinduism, Buddha, Protestantism and found them all wanting for many reasons. I came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church was the true faith.

I can give reasoned explanations on why I rejected each and everyone of those religions, if you are ever interested. Realize however, that it will probably cause furious debate on these forums. But I'm game if you are.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[achampio21]

Okay I am not as good at that paste and answer quote thing as you. But I tried!! :)

Vague? How so?
Or do you mean varied and broad? I would agree with that.

Yes varied.

[/QUOTE]Fair enough. But the New Testament has remained unchanged now for about 2000 years. The Old Testament for about 3000. And oral tradition on the Old Testament even longer.
That is pretty remarkable considering the rudimentary tools they had back then.[/QUOTE]

I know they have been unchanged but it seems to me that certain churches change them or leave out certain parts in separate types of churches.


[/QUOTE]If you ask the question here, we can try to answer. Which verses confuse you?[/QUOTE]
Basically all of them. I get the simple ones but a lot them seem to talk in circles to me. Maybe because like you said it was interpreted by man. Like how in several places the bible it states that if you ask anything of God you shall get it.

John: 23And in that day you shall not ask me any thing. Amen, amen I say to you: if you ask the Father any thing in my name, he will give it you.

Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Luke 11:10
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

But that doesn't always happen. So why would Jesus promise something and not follow through?


[/QUOTE]Thats a good summary. Does it sound incredible to you? Is that the problem?[/QUOTE]
No, I wish the bible was as simple as that. Like here are the rules and here is what happened etc. But that is wishful thinking.




[/QUOTE]Heaven is not a physical place but a Spiritual reality. Jesus body was spiritualized after the Resurrection therefore He could do both the physical and the spiritual:[/QUOTE]

Okay I can handle that.


[/QUOTE]This is just speculation. His Body is Spiritualized so He can walk on earth. But whether anyone can or needs to walk in heaven is doubtful because we believe heaven is beyond time and space. If there is no space, there is nothing to walk upon nor any reason to walk.[/QUOTE]

I can deal with that too.




[/QUOTE]I went through much the same experience which you have expressed. I was an atheist for many years when my wife conceived our first child. Before that time, I had never seen any evidence of the existence of God. When my wife conceived, the thought occurred to me that all I did was make whoopee with my wife and suddenly a living breathing creature was produced?!!!

How wonderful is that?[/QUOTE]

Very wonderful!

[/QUOTE]More than that, I realized I only enjoyed the process. I did nothing else to bring it about. When I build a fence, I dig holes, nail boards, usually in the heat of the day and its a very difficult business. But here the most wonderful thing in the world was being produced BY ME? and yet I had nothing to do. I didn't put the arms in place, the head, the muscles the nerves, NOTHING. I was simply the recipient of a wonderful gift.[/QUOTE]

Amazing how little we do to create another life.

[/QUOTE]And I can't look at my children and say, "no intelligence went into producing this." The intelligent design is obvious. There is absolutely no doubt that a Being created them with purpose and wisdom.[/QUOTE]
I agree totally.

[/QUOTE]So, I went from not believing in God to believing in God, virtually overnight.[/QUOTE]
Pretty cool.

[/QUOTE]The next problem was which God. I looked around and considered Islam, Hinduism, Buddha, Protestantism and found them all wanting for many reasons. I came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church was the true faith.
I can give reasoned explanations on why I rejected each and everyone of those religions, if you are ever interested. Realize however, that it will probably cause furious debate on these forums. But I'm game if you are.[/QUOTE]

LOL! I have realized that. And may possibly take you up on that. :)

[De Maria]

Okay I am not as good at that paste and answer quote thing as you. But I tried!! :)

No problem. Just remember, press the quote button and not the quick reply at the bottom of each message.

Then bookend each quote with the word quote in brackets [] and the /quote in []. If you press preview, that will show you if it worked.

Or you can highlight the words you want quoted and press the quote balloon on the edit menu above.

I know they have been unchanged but it seems to me that certain churches change them or leave out certain parts in separate types of churches.

That is true. So, discernment is necessary.

Basically all of them.

Then I suggest a Bible study like the one I recommended. Scott Hahn goes systematically through the Bible making it very understandable for the lay person. And its free.

I get the simple ones but a lot them seem to talk in circles to me. Maybe because like you said it was interpreted by man. Like how in several places the bible it states that if you ask anything of God you shall get it.

John: 23And in that day you shall not ask me any thing. Amen, amen I say to you: if you ask the Father any thing in my name, he will give it you.

Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Luke 11:10
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

But that doesn't always happen. So why would Jesus promise something and not follow through?

Because of our lack of faith.

Matthew 9 29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, According to your faith, be it done unto you.

7 Matthew 14 31 And immediately Jesus stretching forth his hand took hold of him, and said to him: O thou of little faith, why didst thou doubt?


And because sometimes we pray for the wrong reasons:
James 4 3 You ask, and receive not; because you ask amiss: that you may consume it on your concupiscences.

And because we don't persevere in prayer:
James 5 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Luke 11 5 And he said to them: Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go to him at midnight, and shall say to him: Friend, lend me three loaves, 6 Because a friend of mine is come off his journey to me, and I have not what to set before him. 7 And he from within should answer, and say: Trouble me not, the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee. 8 Yet if he shall continue knocking, I say to you, although he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend; yet, because of his importunity, he will rise, and give him as many as he needeth.

No, I wish the bible was as simple as that. Like here are the rules and here is what happened etc. But that is wishful thinking.

I understand. But it is the same with everything worth knowing. Science, languages, math, even sports. We don't all wake up Einsteins one day. Most of us have to study to learn what we want to know.

Okay I can handle that.

I can deal with that too.

Very wonderful!

Amen!

Amazing how little we do to create another life.

It is truly a gift!

I agree totally.

I know you do. I can tell by your messages.

Pretty cool.

Yeah! Especially because nothing else changed. I was exactly the same person who for most of my life looked at the world and saw just material things, then the one day I could see God's hand at work in Creation.

LOL! I have realized that. And may possibly take you up on that. :)

Thanks for your kind message.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Credendovidis]

Credendovidis, you are such a delight to discuss topics with!!! You have just as much heart in your beliefs( or maybe non-beliefs :)) as I do. I enjoy that about you. Thank you for the pleasure of this discussion!!! I have been enlightened more than you or anyone else could possibly know!! :)

Thanks! The same goes for you and some others here just as well.
The important thing in all these discussions is respect for other views, whatever your own view is.
I could not resist here (though I seldom do that) to provide a glimpse on my personal views in this matter !
And these views are based on Secular Humanism.

Ciao!

:)

[Credendovidis]

For De Maria :

I'll refrain from replying to all your earlier statements as time does not permit that, and react to the following two statements that I feel need some reaction.

Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Yes. Wonderful is it not how nature by means of abiogenesis and evolution developed from non-living materials to whatever lives today ! End quote Credendovidis.

You have proven the Believers claim and you don't even know it. Obviously, nothing can create itself. So, since you don't want to give credit to God, you give credit to "nature".

As usual from people of your attitude you suggest ignorance and lack of knowledge at my side, while you have no idea about my capacities, and repeatedly fail to prove whatever you claim yourself.
Again just as several times before you show lack of respect for others and their views.
You did not really reply to what I stated, but attacked me instead. However you failed to provide even the slightest support for any of your own claims.

Where did I "prove" any believers claim? What "believers" claim?
"Obviously nothing can create itself", you stated. "Obviously"? Why obviously? At this level of argument you have to provide proof for such a wild claim. And who claimed here that anything can create itself? Not I. You suggest that I did, without any support of course...

... For those of us who give credit to God, we look to eternity of joy and happiness in His Presence.

That excludes a lot of people... And even for a lot of Christians that is not true neither. Many Christians are only Christians because they fear eternal damnation and hell.

Next to that : even for that joy and happiness there is no support : it is what you BELIEVE. But nobody ever has been able to provide objective supporting evidence for that CLAIM of joy and happiness, or that presence of God, or even the existence of God !
I really don't mind that you BELIEVE that, but you seem unable to understand that there is/could be a huge difference between your religious beliefs and reality.
The point here is : are you not forgetting the possibility that you may be deceiving yourself with these religious claims? They may be wrong, they may be right, but there is no objective supporting evidence for any of them!

May I suggest that if you want to continue on this, that you open up a new lead, so that we do not interfere with the discussion by achampio21 here?

Ciao!

:)

[De Maria]

For De Maria :

I'll refrain from replying to all your earlier statements as time does not permit that, and react to the following two statements that I feel need some reaction.

Ok.

As usual from people of your attitude you suggest ignorance and lack of knowledge at my side, while you have no idea about my capacities, and repeatedly fail to prove whatever you claim yourself.

Really? Did I do that? Please quote me.

Again just as several times before you show lack of respect for others and their views.

Again, if I showed lack of respect to you, it is because you disrespected me.

You did not really reply to what I stated, but attacked me instead.

I'm sure I responded. But if not, all you have to do is provide the proof. Quote me.

However you failed to provide even the slightest support for any of your own claims.

I think you are the one who has failed to show any support for your claims.

Where did I "prove" any believers claim? What "believers" claim?

Believers claim that God created the universe. By thanking nature, you have substituted nature for God. By thanking nature, you have treated nature as though it were a living, thinking entity.

"Obviously nothing can create itself", you stated. "Obviously"? Why obviously?

Because there is no experience of anything in this world creating itself. If you have such, provide the evidence.

At this level of argument you have to provide proof for such a wild claim.

It is you who have to provide proof for the wild claim that anything created itself.

And who claimed here that anything can create itself? Not I. You suggest that I did, without any support of course...

It is logically inferred from the fact that you deny a Creator. If there exists no Creator then this universe and everything in it created itself.

That excludes a lot of people... And even for a lot of Christians that is not true neither. Many Christians are only Christians because they fear eternal damnation and hell.

That is besides the point. But even there you are wrong. All believers hope in God, whether it is from fear or from love.

Next to that : even for that joy and happiness there is no support

Only for those who haven't experienced it.

: it is what you BELIEVE.

And that is wrong why?

But nobody ever has been able to provide objective supporting evidence for that CLAIM of joy and happiness,

Because this is subjective. It is experienced personally.

or that presence of God, or even the existence of God !

I've provided objective evidence. That you haven't accepted is another question all together. As the saying goes, "for some no evidence is necessary, for others no evidence is ever enough."

I really don't mind that you BELIEVE that,

Yes you do. Your messages are ample evidence of your objection to our Christian beliefs.

but you seem unable to understand that there is/could be a huge difference between your religious beliefs and reality.

You seem unable to grasp that there is/could be a huge difference between your beliefs and reality.

The point here is : are you not forgetting the possibility that you may be deceiving yourself with these religious claims?

A loaded question. You answer it first. Are you not forgetting the possibility that you may be deceiving yourself with your anti-religious claims?

They may be wrong, they may be right, but there is no objective supporting evidence for any of them!

You seem to be of the type that believes if you repeat a falsehood enough, everyone will believe you. I believe Hitler popularized that tactic.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Joseph Goebells
Joseph Goebbels quotes

Unfortunately for you, this isn't true. We have provided ample objective evidence. It is you who have provided nothing but subjective denials of the evidence.

May I suggest that if you want to continue on this, that you open up a new lead, so that we do not interfere with the discussion by achampio21 here?

Good idea! You might want to consider that before you derail any other threads in the future.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Credendovidis]

Good idea! You might want to consider that before you derail any other threads in the future.

Now that is a nice example of a Joseph Goebell's twisting of words.
I suggest something positive, and you turn that into a reprimand, in which you as primary cause of that possible "derailment" blame me, while completing bypassing your own major part in the same...

Rather hypocrite and dishonest, don't you agree ?

;)

[De Maria]

Now that is a nice example of a Joseph Goebell's twisting of words.
I suggest something positive, and you turn that into a reprimand, in which you as primary cause of that possible "derailment" blame me, while completing bypassing your own major part in the same ...

Rather hypocrite and dishonest, don't you agree ?

;)

No. I've seen forums shut down before by trolls with an agenda. They, like you, take advantage of the fact that most people are peaceable. So, they take every opportunity to attack their beliefs, belittle their ideas and in every way harrass them. Eventually, decent people quit participating.

As for me. I go along with the program. I normally answer the question or join the discussion on topic. However, when someone like you disrupts the program, I give as good as I get.

Again, take your own advice, get on topic.

[Credendovidis]

No. I've seen forums shut down before by trolls with an agenda. They, like you, take advantage of the fact that most people are peaceable. So, they take every opportunity to attack their beliefs, belittle their ideas and in every way harrass them. Eventually, decent people quit participating. As for me. I go along with the program. I normally answer the question or join the discussion on topic. However, when someone like you disrupts the program, I give as good as I get. Again, take your own advice, get on topic.

I just repeat my previous post :

Now that is a nice example of a Joseph Goebell's twisting of words.
I suggest something positive, and you turn that into a reprimand, in which you as primary cause of that possible "derailment" blame me, while completing bypassing your own major part in the same...

Rather hypocrite and dishonest, don't you agree ?

[De Maria]

I just repeat my previous post :

Now that is a nice example of a Joseph Goebell's twisting of words.
I suggest something positive, and you turn that into a reprimand, in which you as primary cause of that possible "derailment" blame me, while completing bypassing your own major part in the same ...

Rather hypocrite and dishonest, don't you agree ?

You've just provided more proof of what I said, you think that by repeating a lie long enough people will begin to believe it.

[Credendovidis]

You've just provided more proof of what I said, you think that by repeating a lie long enough people will begin to believe it.

I just repeat my previous post :

Now that is a nice example of a Joseph Goebell's twisting of words.
I suggest something positive, and you turn that into a reprimand, in which you as primary cause of that possible "derailment" blame me, while completing bypassing your own major part in the same...

Rather hypocrite and dishonest, don't you agree ?

[achampio21]

Are you two really still going at it?

Wow.

Hey just so you know I pretty much got my question answered a long time ago.

But you two have fun. It's kind of interesting to read the different points you both point out.