[speechlesstx]

Red herring and excuses. None of our personal charities represent the government's commitments internationally and besides what you declared is used as write off to non-profit organizations. In the last last seven and half years of recent US history, we have all survived the most insane decisions in recent US history and I'm sure the liberals are no worse the challenge.

You sure miss the point a lot lately, I don't think any of us object to our government providing assistance to those in need - it's HOW it's done - and doing so through the UN is an exercise in stupidity. You know, that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? World Vision is an example of getting it done, of $977 million in expenditures, $839 million of it went to work for those in need. In spite of a few problems of late the American Red Cross is another example of getting it done, 89% of their expenses went to assistance in 2007. As far as I know, there are no charges of sexual or child abuse among either of these organizations. If the UN, could get it done like that it would be a different story.

[inthebox]

For Obama, charity really began in the U.S. Senate -- -- chicagotribune.com

"From 1997 through 2002, the Obamas reported devoting less than 1 percent of their household income to charity."


"The national average for charitable giving has long hovered at 2.2 percent of household income, according to the Glenview-based Giving USA Foundation, which tracks trends in philanthropy. Obama tax returns dating to 1997 show he fell well below that benchmark until 2005, the year he arrived in Washington"


I thought leaders were to lead by example?

Now we know that Obama wants to charitably donate the TAXPAYORS MONEY, not his, to charity.

This is besides the issues of how effective that money is being spent as per Tom and Speech.


Call me nationalistic or not a "world patriot," but why does not Obama propose ending poverty here in the US? Oh, that has not been accomplished yet.



----------------------------------------------------------------

Whatever happened to teaching someone to fish and not just always providing them the fish?

Teach people to live secure, free, stable. That way investment money comes in. The cause of ending poverty is not helped when a country's infrastructure or government is not secure.

[BABRAM]

You sure miss the point a lot lately, I don't think any of us object to our government providing assistance to those in need - it's HOW it's done - and doing so through the UN is an exercise in stupidity. You know, that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? World Vision is an example of getting it done, of $977 million in expenditures, $839 million of it went to work for those in need. In spite of a few problems of late the American Red Cross is another example of getting it done, 89% of their expenses went to assistance in 2007. As far as I know, there are no charges of sexual or child abuse among either of these organizations. If the UN, could get it done like that it would be a different story.

What you honor as a points, I recognize as exercises in dull mind numbing excuses. With 16 of 22 countries on track to make good on their commitment of 0.7 GNP by 2015, I'd hoped the US would be one of them. Obliviously that doesn't bother you that we might miss that mark, but then again the four or five of dissenting voices on this post have been Republicans and I'm not surprised.

[BABRAM]

For Obama, charity really began in the U.S. Senate -- -- chicagotribune.com

"From 1997 through 2002, the Obamas reported devoting less than 1 percent of their household income to charity."


"The national average for charitable giving has long hovered at 2.2 percent of household income, according to the Glenview-based Giving USA Foundation, which tracks trends in philanthropy. Obama tax returns dating to 1997 show he fell well below that benchmark until 2005, the year he arrived in Washington"


I thought leaders were to lead by example?

Now we know that Obama wants to charitably donate the TAXPAYORS MONEY, not his, to charity.

This is besides the issues of how effective that money is being spent as per Tom and Speech.


Call me nationalistic or not a "world patriot," but why does not Obama propose ending poverty here in the US? Oh, that has not been accomplished yet.



----------------------------------------------------------------

Whatever happened to teaching someone to fish and not just always providing them the fish?

Teach people to live secure, free, stable. That way investment money comes in. The cause of ending poverty is not helped when a country's infrastructure or governement is not secure.

How did your donations compare to Obama's 5.7 percent??

Obama Releases 2007 Tax Return
Washington, D.C. (April 18, 2008)
By WebCPA staff

WebCPA - Obama Releases 2007 Tax Return

"Presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., released the 2007 tax return for himself and his wife Michelle.

The return reported $4.2 million in income, mainly on profits from the senator's best-selling books The Audacity of Hope and Dreams from My Father.

The tax return also revealed that the senator has set up a Simplified Employee Pension Individual Retirement Account, as tax planners recommended after he released his returns for 2000 to 2006 (see Obama Releases Tax Returns).

The 2007 return shows that Obama received a salary of $157,102 from the Senate, while his wife received $103,633 from her salary as vice president of community and external affairs at the University of Chicago Medical Center. The Obamas donated $240,370 to charity."

[BABRAM]

"For John McCain, doublethink is a part of the family
Submitted by Randall McElroy iii on Sun, 2008-02-03 14:37.
Here's a blast from 2000:

Much has been made of allegations of possible youthful use of
illegal drugs by Republican presidential candidate George W. Bush.
Meanwhile, his chief GOP opponent, Arizona Sen. John McCain, has admitted
that his wife not only illegally used drugs but walked away from criminal
charges. The McCains have worked to make Cindy McCain's addiction into a
political asset--despite the fact that she stole the drugs from a charity
she directed and used them while mothering four young children.

...

Is Mrs. McCain to be judged as a pitiable victim or as a criminal
felon? This debate is at the heart of the discussion of American drug
policy. Should we deal with illicit drug users as victims or as
criminals?

Let's examine Mrs. McCain's position in these terms. She was the
privileged wife of a prominent family and spouse of an important
politician, a person who had her own position of prestige and power.
Should she not be held at least as accountable for her actions as an
uneducated inner-city drug user? After all, she could enter drug
treatment at any time she chose, unlike many drug users who find
themselves in prison.

Moreover, Mrs. McCain was violating a position of trust by stealing
from a charitable organization, using its money and medical expertise to
fuel her drug use. Is this not morally more reprehensible than simply
purchasing drugs illegally?

Finally, Mrs. McCain was the mother of four children at the time she
admits to using drugs--between 1989 and 1992. Her children were born in
1984, 1986, 1988 and 1991. In other words, Cindy McCain was using drugs
while raising small children, one of whom she adopted while she was an
addict. In most states, family services will remove children from a woman
who is known to be an active drug addict, and she would certainly not be
allowed to adopt a child while addicted.

John McCain is a hawk in the drug war. He advocates stricter drug
laws, penalties and enforcement against drug sellers. He has had nothing
to say about redressing our punitive approach toward drug users. Of
course, McCain also supports family values. Yet if John and Cindy McCain
were not well-off and influential, they might not have a family at all.
McCain's lack of concern for street drug users contrasts sharply with the
support and understanding his wife received. It's the old American double
standard. For "straight-shooter" McCain, charity begins at home--and ends
there.

In 2008 as in 2000, John McCain manages to hold some of the most reprehensible political positions in all of DC--no small feat--and still manage to woo independents like nobody's business."

[tomder55]

She became addicted to pain killers after she had 2 back surguries. She has also had several miscarriages and a stroke .

After her miscarriages she was able to have 3 children of her own . She also with Sen McCain went to Bangladesh and adopted a daughter who was in serious need of medical care.

Make that period of her life a campaign issue. My bet is that it will be a net positive to the McCain campaign.

but then again the four or five of dissenting voices on this post have been Republicans and I'm not surprised.

I quit the Democrat party in 2003 and never did reregister as a Republican .There was a time when Democrats believed in national sovereignty ;when we acted in our best interests rather than in the interests of gaining the approval of the "international community ."

[speechlesstx]

What you honor as a points, I recognize as exercises in dull mind numbing excuses. With 16 of 22 countries on track to make good on their commitment of 0.7 GNP by 2015, I'd hoped the US would be one of them. Obliviously that doesn't bother you that we might miss that mark, but then again the four or five of dissenting voices on this post have been Republicans and I'm not surprised.

Wow, when it comes to the Iraq war you object to "throwing money at useless wars," but instead of giving effectively to starving children, throwing money at despots and dictators so we can meet our commitment is a "dull mind numbing excuse."

I think I said this before but Myanmar is a perfect example:

Relief supplies from the United Nations arrived in Myanmar Thursday, but U.S. military planes loaded with aid were still denied access by the country's isolationist regime five days after a devastating cyclone...

By rejecting the U.S. offer, the junta is refusing to take advantage of Washington's enormous ability to deliver aid quickly, which was evident during the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami that killed 230,000 people in a dozen nations.

"We have demonstrated in crises around the world ... our logistical capability to get humanitarian assistance quickly in to the people who need it," said Shari Villarosa, the top U.S. diplomat in Myanmar.

We can get it done, but instead we get this:

Myanmar's junta seized U.N. aid shipments Friday meant for a multitude of hungry and homeless survivors of last week's devastating cyclone, forcing the world body to suspend further help.

The aid included 38 tons of high-energy biscuits and arrived in Myanmar on Friday on two flights from Bangladesh and the United Arab Emirates.

"All of the food aid and equipment that we managed to get in has been confiscated," U.N. World Food Program spokesman Risley said.

"For the time being, we have no choice but to end further efforts to bring critical needed food aid into Myanmar at this time," he said.

Would you rather meet our commitment or get it done? I say get it done.

[tomder55]

Yup tragically that was predictable . But let's make a percent of our GDP a feel good marker. Shouldn't matter at all that the aid provided will be stolen before it reaches those it is intended to help .


BTW

Death toll projections are now at a point that they could potentially exceed all the deaths of the 2004 Tsunami ;and could reach a staggering 500,000 people . The world does not appear to be rallying to extend massive aid yet . Most of the increase is due to the junta blocking needed supplies that are loaded and ready to go .

[speechlesstx]

Yup tragically that was predictable . But let's make a percent of our GDP a feel good marker. Shouldn't matter at all that the aid provided will be stolen before it reaches those it is intended to help .

That keeps coming up again and again lately. While I certainly enjoy a nice "feel good moment" I feel much better knowing something is actually getting done. I guess that's the difference between the left and the right, the left is satisfied by the act and the right is satisfied by positive results.

[BABRAM]

Wow, when it comes to the Iraq war you object to "throwing money at useless wars," but instead of giving effectively to starving children, throwing money at despots and dictators so we can meet our commitment is a "dull mind numbing excuse."

I think I said this before but Myanmar is a perfect example:



We can get it done, but instead we get this:



Would you rather meet our commitment or get it done? I say get it done.

Steve, you're either having a momentary lapse of reasoning or Limbaugh's using hypnotic radio amplitude modulation. First off consuming bullets is not part of child's nutritional diet, and secondly, the junta effected everyone including the Red Cross, but this is getting resolved.


May 10, 2008
Burmese Junta Seizes Aid and Blocks Foreigners
By SETH MYDANS

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/10/wo...57a&ei=5087%0A

"BANGKOK — The military leaders of Myanmar seized a shipment of United Nations food aid on Friday intended for victims of a devastating cyclone, declaring that they would accept donations of food and medicine but not the foreign aid workers international groups say are in equally short supply there.

The ruling junta continued to permit a small number of aid deliveries and promised to allow the first air shipment from the Pentagon on Monday, a significant concession because the United States has been Myamar’s leading critic, imposing sanctions and lobbying for a United Nations resolution condemning the nation’s generals for human rights violations.

But the refusal of the country’s iron-fisted rulers to allow doctors and disaster relief experts to enter in large numbers contributed to the growing concern that starvation and epidemic diseases could end up killing people on the same scale as the winds, waves and flooding that destroyed villages across a wide swath of coastal Myanmar nearly a week ago.

The International Red Cross estimated on Friday that the combined efforts of relief agencies and the Myanmar government have distributed aid to only 220,000 of up to 1.9 million people left homeless, injured or subject to disease and hunger after the storm.

"There are problems to get the aid inside, and there are problems to get the aid out to the delta area," the Danish Red Cross director, Anders Ladekarl, told Danish broadcaster DR. "We are simply lacking transportation. There are almost no boats and no helicopters. This is really a nightmare to make this operation run."

As foreign aid groups scurried to deliver relief, the generals who run Myanmar continued to focus on a separate priority: a constitutional referendum scheduled for Saturday.

The junta’s plan to go ahead with the vote while restricting aid deliveries drew widespread criticism and concern that soldiers who could be rescuing survivors were likely to be dispatched to polling places instead.

“It is one of the best examples of the disregard for the people by the military,” said Josef Silverstein an expert on Myanmar at Rutgers University.

Fourteen years in the making, the constitution is formulated to keep power in the hands of military officers, even if they change to civilian clothes. It would guarantee the military 25 percent of the seats in Parliament and control of key cabinet posts, along with the right to suspend democratic freedoms at any time.

But while the state-run newspaper urged people on Friday to approve the constitution, little help was reaching them. To date, Myanmar has allowed 11 airborne deliveries of aid, which experts say is a fraction of the relief needed if the scale of the disaster is even close to what the Burmese government has claimed. And much of that has come from the United Nations World Food Program, which said on Friday that the aid it had delivered — and intended to distribute to hard-hit regions along the coast — had been seized.

“All the food aid and equipment that we managed to get in has been confiscated,” said Paul Risley, a spokesman for the United Nations World Food Program in Bangkok.

After initially saying it would halt deliveries, the agency said later Friday that flights would continue on Saturday while the issue is worked out. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon urged the Myanmar authorities to let aid into the country “without hindrance” and said the effect of further delay could be “truly catastrophic.”

His spokeswoman, Marie Okabe, said Mr. Ban had been trying for two days without success to get in touch by telephone with Than Shwe, the junta’s senior general. “We have been told that the phone lines are down,” she said.

Myanmar’s military junta said in a statement on Friday that it was willing to receive disaster relief from the outside world but would distribute supplies itself rather than allowing in relief workers. Aid agencies want to coordinate and control their own aid.

Already Myanmar has turned away one fully loaded flight because the supplies were accompanied by disaster experts and press.

“Myanmar is not in a position to receive rescue and information teams from foreign countries at the moment,” said a Foreign Ministry statement. “But at present Myanmar is giving priority to receiving relief aid and distributing them to the storm-hit regions with its own resources.”

Even so, some agencies and nations were delivering supplies successfully. India sent two ships loaded with relief supplies, and the United Nations Children’s Fund said it was not meeting problems with its deliveries of aid.

A spokesman for Unicef, Christopher de Bono, said in an e-mail that millions of water purification tablets had been delivered Thursday, and that although customs clearance could take two days, “as far as we know there has been no indication of any problems so far.”

In a telephone call from Myanmar, an official of the International Red Cross, Michael Annear, said delivery work was proceeding normally in cooperation with other agencies and local businesses.

Doctors Without Borders, which had been running large H.I.V. and malaria programs in Myanmar, has about 80 staff members in the Delta region and is sending more in, said Frank Smithuis, the group’s head of mission. He said the group was distributing food and medicine from the stores it already had in place.

In the worst-affected areas, he said, 95 percent of the people had lost their homes and everything they owned, and were in desperate need of food, water and shelter.

Mr. Smithuis said his group was dispatching teams of six — a doctor, a nurse, a medical assistant, two water and sanitation workers and a food distributor who would hire local people to help distribute food.

The teams are seeing many people injured by the storm who have infected wounds that need to be drained and treated with antibiotics, he said.

“It sounds like we have everything under control and that’s not true,” Mr. Smithuis said. “The area is wide and there’s a lot of people. We don’t see other players, we don’t see other help.” Most relief workers on the ground are local people and would be less likely to encounter the suspicion with which authorities view foreigners."

[Galveston1]

And do you think additional aid out of our pockets will help this situation? I expect the most needy people in Myanmar will turn out to be the officials. Obama hasn't eliminated poverty in his home state, although he has been in the Senate for a while. You libs want to give him what is basically a blank check to do world wide what he can't do at home. If it dosen't make me physically ill, I'll likely vote for the THIRD Democrat in this race.

[BABRAM]

Don't sweat it. I suspect that Limbaugh the conservative entertaining clown will attempt to make McCain the Republican saviour before November. Now what additional money is coming our of your pocket?? You sent money?? President Bush hasn't completely eliminated poverty considering the US, but what does that have to do with Myanmar??

[speechlesstx]

Steve, you're either having a momentary lapse of reasoning or Limbaugh's using hypnotic radio amplitude modulation. First off consuming bullets is not part of child's nutritional diet, and secondly, the junta effected everyone including the Red Cross, but this is getting resolved.

Must be that hypnotic radio amplitude modulation because I don't recall this subject from anywhere but here. In the case of Iraq at least the money is going toward trying to establish the kind of freedom and rights the Burmese have no chance at under their military junta. Regardless of how things have gone in Iraq so far it's still too early to tell if it was worth the effort. On the other hand there is no "lapse of reasoning" in bypassing the UN in order to get assistance where it's needed - we already know their long history of failure. And oh, it's not getting done in Myanmar...

Myanmar toll likely to hit 216,000
UN officials estimate disaster may claim as many or more than those killed by 2004's horrific Indian Ocean tsunamis

GEOFFREY YORK

From Monday's Globe and Mail

May 12, 2008 at 3:22 AM EDT

BANGKOK — The death toll in Myanmar's cyclone disaster could be as high as 216,000 or more, making it as deadly as the tsunamis that devastated much of Asia in 2004, according to new unofficial estimates from United Nations sources.

The latest estimates, dramatically higher than the official toll of about 28,000, suggest that Myanmar's military regime has been deliberately underestimating the number of victims of the catastrophe that hit the country a week ago.

Relief operations suffered a setback yesterday when a boat sank after hitting a submerged tree trunk as it carried a Red Cross shipment of rice and water for more than 1,000 people. It was the first Red Cross shipment to the Irrawaddy River delta, where the cyclone struck hardest. The crew was rescued, but the supplies were lost.

Relief workers warned that 1.5 million homeless survivors are at risk of dying if assistance is not urgently provided. But relief shipments are still relatively slow because of restrictions imposed by the military regime. At the same time, government resources were diverted away from relief efforts on Saturday to carry out a referendum to legitimize the new pro-junta constitution.

At a meeting in Rangoon yesterday, a Myanmar cabinet minister told relief agencies that foreign aid workers are prohibited from entering the disaster zone and must give all of their supplies to the government for distribution.

A few relief agencies have managed to evade those rules, but the minister's statement was a sign that the military regime is determined to maintain a tight grip on the entire relief operation, even though its restrictions have hampered the aid distribution.

[tomder55]

Steve I think the death toll will rise dramatically above the numbers cited as medeval pandemics occure because of the lack of a timely response.

Abetting Burma

As anti-Americanism has become the raison d'etre of various U.N. member states, attempts by the United States to ratchet up international pressure against Burma have gone nowhere. China and other human-rights abusers make sure that tough U.N. Security Council resolutions--an arms embargo, for example, or sanctions on banking transactions targeting top leaders--never see the light of day.

The U.N. General Assembly has approved a "responsibility to protect" doctrine, for example, which authorizes states to intervene to protect civilian populations from gross human-rights abuses. Burma--a tiny, corrupt, desperately poor state--is a standing rebuke to the U.N. doctrine and to the notion that the United Nations alone possesses the moral legitimacy to enforce it.

[Galveston1]

Don't sweat it. I suspect that Limbaugh the conservative entertaining clown will attempt to make McCain the Republican saviour before November. Now what additional money is coming our of your pocket??? You sent money??? President Bush hasn't completely eliminated poverty considering the US, but what does that have to do with Myanmar???

Aren't you pretty far afield? My original question dealt with Obama and his grandiose scheme (yes it's his because he has adopted it) to eliminate poverty world wide. Where do you think the additional money will come from? My pocket? Yours? Our grandchildren?

[BABRAM]

Aren't you pretty far afield? My original question dealt with Obama and his grandiose scheme (yes it's his because he has adopted it) to eliminate poverty world wide. Where do you think the additional money will come from? My pocket? Yours? Our grandchildren?

Steve brought it up and I had no problem with that. I may disagree with him from time to time, and on this subject, but I respect his shared views. Actually I thought he tied it into the subject rather well. But if that bothers you maybe you should ask him?? Read through the post. Oh! And that grandiose scheme! That would be the same pockets that the inept war-lord "Dubya" is digging deep into. Your pocket, my pocket, and our grand-children's pocket. If someone's going to have a hand in my pocket I'd rather it be for attempting to help feed children.

[BABRAM]

Must be that hypnotic radio amplitude modulation because I don't recall this subject from anywhere but here. In the case of Iraq at least the money is going toward trying to establish the kind of freedom and rights the Burmese have no chance at under their military junta. Regardless of how things have gone in Iraq so far it's still too early to tell if it was worth the effort. On the other hand there is no "lapse of reasoning" in bypassing the UN in order to get assistance where it's needed - we already know their long history of failure. And oh, it's not getting done in Myanmar...

You are agreeing with what I said already. Is there an echo in here? Yes! Everyone, not just the UN, is/was/is/was having a problem with the junta. That's the nature of the Myanmar beast; rebels. It'll get done with intervention or paying off the rebels. I keep forgetting most Americans haven't been in that kind of environment. Think of it as their mafia, in charge.

[speechlesstx]

You are agreeing with what I said already. Is there an echo in here?! Yes! Everyone, not just the UN, is/was/is/was having a problem with the junta. That's the nature of the Myanmar beast; rebels. It'll get done with intervention or paying off the rebels. I keep forgetting most Americans haven't been in that kind of environment. Think of it as their mafia, in charge.

Echo? You said "this is getting resolved" and I said it wasn't. Doesn't sound like an echo to me :D

[tomder55]

It'll get done with intervention or paying off the rebels

The report today said that the junta is confiscating the aid and sending spoiled food to the people instead.

[speechlesstx]

Steve brought it up and I had no problem with that. I may disagree with him from time to time, and on this subject, but I respect his shared views. Actually I thought he tied it into the subject rather well. But if that bothers you maybe you should ask him??? Read through the post. Oh! And that grandiose scheme! That would be the same pockets that the inept war-lord "Dubya" is digging deep into. Your pocket, my pocket, and our grand-children's pocket. If someones going to have a hand in my pocket I'd rather it be for attempting to help feed children.

I brought up Limbaugh and McCain? :D Hey, I'd much rather have someone picking my pocket to feed children, I just think we can do better than attempting to help feed children through the UN.