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tatertot · Oct 12, 2007, 03:06 PM

Correction creation of isreal was after the 2nd world war

tatertot · Oct 12, 2007, 03:17 PM

Diest the only thing I can say to you is you can not receive and/or know Christ through reasoning! It is by FAITH. If you know him like I know Him and how he has transformed my life then you would not be arguing in circles. Has taken me from death and has brought me life. He said " i came that you may have life and have it more abandantly" that verse came alive in my own life and that is all the evidence I need. I don't need to investgate fossil records and do extensive research to prove his claims. The personal encounter I have had with him is how I KNOW he is Truth and he is GOD! My God and I love him and one day I will see his face and thank him for all he has done for me.

deist · Oct 12, 2007, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by tatertot

Jesus was reffering to the Holly Spirit which is the spirit of God/jesus. All the proffecies of Jesus' first coming were fulfilled to the T. theses were written many years before his birth and they all came to pass. All the prophesies of his second coming have also been fulfilled including the creation of the country Isreal which happened in 1946 after the first world war. So jesus can come anytime, even now as i type but the Bible says not even the Angels know only God Knows. Jesus talks of the signs of his coming he does not give a timeframe!

The so-called signs Jesus gave of the end times, earthquakes, wars, famines, pestilence, have been occurring all throughout history, even long before Jesus came on the scene. Israel was not reestablished in 1946, it was May 14, 1948, & all the alleged Old Testament prophecies of a rebirth of Israel were made before or during the Babylonian captivity. The prophets did not have 1948 in mind at all, the so-called prophecies of Israels rebirth referred to the return from captivity in Babylon under the Persian king Cyrus.

Galveston1 · Oct 12, 2007, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by deist

Where is your multiple corraborating records ? There are none outside the bible. You are guilty of using the bible to prove the bible & that is circular reasoning. Nowhere in the New Testament does the angel Gabriel call Jesus Immanuel (god with us), in fact, nowhere in the entire New Testament is Jesus called Immanuel outside Matthew's reference to a prophecy that didn't even refer to Jesus, but to Isaiah's own son born by a prophetess (probably his wife). The evil bible god drowned millions of young children & unborn babies, who had committed no personal sins, who didn't even understand the concept of good or evil. The evil bible god says, It's my way or hell damnit ! He sounds like a mean bully throwing a tantrum. You have been brainwashed by fundamentalism. The true God is good, nothing at all like the evil bible god.

Well, you're right it wasn't Gabriel. It was:
Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
(KJV)

I hardly think Isaiah's son was born of a virgin, do you? You answered not a word about any proofs of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Since the Bible is the pre-eminent book of things relating to Jesus, which one would you prefer? Josephus records facts about Jesus, and there are problbly others. The Bible record is that of eye witnesses. You parrot charges of forgeries, etc. which go back probably to when the ink was still wet on the scroll, but no one has successfully proven the Bible false. Voltaire tried and failed and someone named Ingersoll (I think) who was supposed to be such a wise atheist tried and failed, etc, et al. Do you stand by your statement that Jesus is evil? You are more political than religious in this, in that you keep coming back to some fundamentalist or right wing conspiracy. Explain why leftists of various shades of red and pink have for generations been trying to turn our republic into a socilist state and that's OK with you but now that the majority of U.S. citizens are waking up and becoming politically knowledgeable and active you scream conspiracy.

Galveston1 · Oct 12, 2007, 05:54 PM

deist, I want to say something about your obvious reference to the flood of Noah. Since you don't believe the Bible, what makes you think God drowned anyone? For the benefit of others reading this I offer some thoughts about Noah's flood and the reason for it. It was not a temper tantrum. God promised a seed (son) to Eve who would crush the serpent's (Satan) head. Most of the O.T. from that point forward is a record of God keeping that promise. The Genesis record shows that by Noah's time he was the only one left with both a righteous life style and proper genealogy from Adam. The human race had been mongrelized by fallen angels, with the intent of breaking God's word. If that had been possible, the God would not be almighty. To keep the lineage of Messiah going, the civilization of that day had to be destroyed. I surely do expect some remarks about this!

fallen2grace · Oct 12, 2007, 07:09 PM

Whoa, Wow. That's really... Not true. God is love. In Which there is no evil to be found.

fallen2grace · Oct 12, 2007, 07:16 PM

I used a bible commentary:

Mark 14:62

"after speaking of His deity, Jesus immediately refers to His humanity, using a phrase from Daniel 7:13, which speaks of Messiah's humanity."- Jon Courson.

Actually I have no clue what that means but I thought I would add it, in case any of you guys did. What I believe he is talking about is the rapture.

fallen2grace · Oct 12, 2007, 07:23 PM

Amen!

fallen2grace · Oct 12, 2007, 07:36 PM

Yes! Yes!

fallen2grace · Oct 12, 2007, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by deist

Where is your multiple corraborating records ? There are none outside the bible. You are guilty of using the bible to prove the bible & that is circular reasoning. Nowhere in the New Testament does the angel Gabriel call Jesus Immanuel (god with us), in fact, nowhere in the entire New Testament is Jesus called Immanuel outside Matthew's reference to a prophecy that didn't even refer to Jesus, but to Isaiah's own son born by a prophetess (probably his wife). The evil bible god drowned millions of young children & unborn babies, who had committed no personal sins, who didn't even understand the concept of good or evil. The evil bible god says, It's my way or hell damnit ! He sounds like a mean bully throwing a tantrum. You have been brainwashed by fundamentalism. The true God is good, nothing at all like the evil bible god.

Why do you keep saying "evil bible god"? He is love and there is on evil at all!

The so-called signs Jesus gave of the end times, earthquakes, wars, famines, pestilence, have been occurring all throughout history, even long before Jesus came on the scene. Israel was not reestablished in 1946, it was May 14, 1948, & all the alleged Old Testament prophecies of a rebirth of Israel were made before or during the Babylonian captivity. The prophets did not have 1948 in mind at all, the so-called prophecies of Israels rebirth referred to the return from captivity in Babylon under the Persian king Cyrus.

The rapture comes beofore the rebuilding of Isreal.

deist · Oct 12, 2007, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by Galveston1

Well, you're right it wasn't Gabriel. It was:
Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
(KJV)

I hardly think Isaiah's son was born of a virgin, do you? You answered not a word about any proofs of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Since the Bible is the pre-eminent book of things relating to Jesus, which one would you prefer? Josephus records facts about Jesus, and there are problbly others. The Bible record is that of eye witnesses. You parrot charges of forgeries, etc. which go back probably to when the ink was still wet on the scroll, but no one has successfully proven the Bible false. Voltaire tried and failed and someone named Ingersoll (I think) who was supposed to be such a wise atheist tried and failed, etc, et al. Do you stand by your statement that Jesus is evil? You are more political than religious in this, in that you keep coming back to some fundamentalist or right wing conspiricy. Explain why leftists of various shades of red and pink have for generations been trying to turn our republic into a socilist state and that's ok with you but now that the majority of U.S. citizens are waking up and becoming politically knowledgeable and active you scream conspiricy.

I never said Jesus was evil. I said the bible god was evil. Jesus is not God, he was just a man. Josephus only mentions Jesus twice I believe, & both instances are suspect. I'm not for communism, but the 1st century church was. The early church was neither a democracy nor a republic.

deist · Oct 12, 2007, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Galveston1

deist, I want to say something about your obvious reference to the flood of Noah. Since you don't believe the Bible, what makes you think God drowned anyone? For the benefit of others reading this I offer some thoughts about Noah's flood and the reason for it. It was not a temper tantrum. God promised a seed (son) to Eve who would crush the serpent's (Satan) head. Most of the O.T. from that point forward is a record of God keeping that promise. The Genesis record shows that by Noah's time he was the only one left with both a righteous life style and proper geneology from Adam. The human race had been mongrelized by fallen angels, with the intent of breaking God's word. If that had been possible, the God would not be almighty. To keep the lineage of Messiah going, the civilization of that day had to be destroyed. I surely do expect some remarks about this!

God didn't drown anyone, the true God wouldn't do that, but the bible god would. And the view that the sons of God in Genesis being fallen angels is not generally believed by the vast majority of Bible scholars.

deist · Oct 12, 2007, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by fallen2grace

Why do you keep saying "evil bible god"? He is love and there is on evil at all!

The rapture comes beofore the rebuilding of Isreal.

I stand by my statement that the bible god is evil. Israel became a nation in 1948. Are you saying the rapture occurred prior to 1948 ? If so, no one would agree with you.

firmbeliever · Oct 13, 2007, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by deist

The so-called signs Jesus gave of the end times, earthquakes, wars, famines, pestilence, have been occuring all throughout history, even long before Jesus came on the scene. Israel was not reestablished in 1946, it was May 14, 1948, & all the alleged Old Testament prophecies of a rebirth of Israel were made before or during the Babylonian captivity. The prophets did not have 1948 in mind at all, the so-called prophecies of Israels rebirth referred to the return from captivity in Babylon under the Persian king Cyrus.

I would like to point out that each of these times the signs come it is a warning for those who believe in Jesus(alaihi salaams)returns and to mend their ways.

It is a sign,which necessarily does not mean that it will happen exactly as we expect or when we expect it.
It just means that we have to be always prepared for that day to know and understand the truth.
I am sure there have been many in this world who have passed away hoping to see this day and find the truth,but each of our lives are on a limited time and when the time comes we cannot be here on earth to see prophesies fulfilled.
And remember that time to the Almighty is not on our scale and He is not effected by our measurement of time.
He says the Hour will come when all will be judged and before this Jesus (alaihi salaam) will descend.

Deist, if you believe in the Almighty, why do you believe that the One you believe and we believe are two different Gods.There is only One God, and has been only One from the beginning and will be One till the end and beyond.

Instead of picking and choosing from the scriptures,why not really study them all to understand what is common in the three monotheistic faiths books and try to keep an open mind.
I know you do not believe in revealed books,but as you are already looking to prove them false why not really study them thoroughly.
Find out what is common in all of them,maybe it will help you see from a different perspective.

Sorry to all christians here if I said anything offensive,but as I do agree with you that Jesus(alaihi salaam) will descend near the end times, I just wanted to put in my two cents.

Tj3 · Oct 13, 2007, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by deist

I stand by my statement that the bible god is evil. Israel became a nation in 1948. Are you saying the rapture occured prior to 1948 ? If so, no one would agree with you.

Where exactly are you getting this stuff from? Is there a website somewhere that makes these claims? Who ever said that the rapture would occur before Israel became a nation again?

To be honest, I have been following a lot of what you have been saying and the claims that you have been making, things that you claim that the Bible says, simply cannot be substantiated by even a cursory reading of the relevant passages.

tatertot · Oct 13, 2007, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by deist

The so-called signs Jesus gave of the end times, earthquakes, wars, famines, pestilence, have been occuring all throughout history, even long before Jesus came on the scene. Israel was not reestablished in 1946, it was May 14, 1948, & all the alleged Old Testament prophecies of a rebirth of Israel were made before or during the Babylonian captivity. The prophets did not have 1948 in mind at all, the so-called prophecies of Israels rebirth referred to the return from captivity in Babylon under the Persian king Cyrus.

Deist: Its funny how you did not respond to my answers that talked about the way Jesus has transformed my life, you could only try to discount me on an interlectual level. That is because there is no way you can say that Jesus has not transformed lives. Mine in particular. That is the real evidence. Nothing you can say or anyone else can change my faith in Him because I have seen what he has done. If you did more research you would find out that He is Lord. If you open up you heart ask him to reveal himself to you he will. I promise you. There are over 500 witnesses of his resurection. Do you really think that many people would make that up? And if they did make it up don't you think that they would have also made up that he came back again "as he promised" a few years later just to complete their "story"? So if you are a Diest and you think there is a god just not the one in the Bible then the god you believe in is more evil because he won't even make himself known to you or to man, his creation. The old testament is filled with prophesies of the coming of the mesiah. These were written by (with historical evidence) men who lived centuaries before Christ was born. They detailed his birth place, the way he would die e.t.c long before he lived and He fulfilled all those prophesies. Isaih said long before Christ. " he was wounded for our transgressions he was bruised for our iniquites and chastised for our peace and by the stripes on his back we have been healed" and all that has been documented even in non biblical findings to have happened. So how do explain that? God is love and he love YOU diest as if you were the only man he ever created. He is calling out to you to receive him through His son Jesus whom he sent to take your place in death. God is a God of principle Holy and with out blame. He can not ignore sin because of his holyness and the only thing that removes sin is blood with out the shedding of blood there is not remmission for sin. That is why christ died as a sacrifies and through his blood we have become reconciled to God. Because of Christ we can come boldly into the presence of God because His blood has made us Rightous. We stand before GOd blameless. God loves you and it hurts him to see you discount him and call him evil. He loves you and wants to have personal relationship with him. So please diest just open your heart and let God show himself to you!

deist · Oct 13, 2007, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by tatertot

Deist: Its funny how you did not respond to my answers that talked about the way Jesus has transformed my life, you could only try to discount me on an interlectual level. That is because there is no way you can say that Jesus has not transformed lives. Mine in particular. That is the real evidence. Nothing you can say or anyone else can change my faith in Him because i have seen what he has done. If you did more research you would find out that He is Lord. If you open up you heart ask him to reveal himself to you he will. I promise you. there are over 500 witnesses of his resurection. Do you really think that many people would make that up? and if they did make it up dont you think that they would have also made up that he came back again "as he promised" a few years later just to complete their "story"? So if you are a Diest and you think there is a god just not the one in the Bible then the god you beleive in is more evil because he wont even make himself known to you or to man, his creation. The old testament is filled with prophesies of the coming of the mesiah. These were written by (with historical evidence) men who lived centuaries before Christ was born. They detailed his birth place, the way he would die e.t.c long before he lived and He fulfilled all those prophesies. Isaih said long before Christ. " he was wounded for our transgressions he was bruised for our iniquites and chastised for our peace and by the stripes on his back we have been healed" and all that has been documented even in non biblical findings to have happened. So how do explain that? God is love and he love YOU diest as if you were the only man he ever created. He is calling out to you to recieve him through His son Jesus whom he sent to take your place in death. God is a God of principle Holy and with out blame. He can not ignore sin because of his holyness and the only thing that removes sin is blood with out the shedding of blood there is not remmission for sin. that is why christ died as a sacrifies and through his blood we have become reconciled to God. Because of Christ we can come boldly into the presence of God because His blood has made us Rightous. We stand before GOd blameless. God loves you and it hurts him to see you discount him and call him evil. He loves you and wants to have personal relationship with him. So plse diest just open your heart and let God show himself to you!

The changes in your life can be attributed to positive thinking. People who follow different religions have also experienced a change in life. How do you account for that ? They feel their particular religion has made them better people too.

deist · Oct 13, 2007, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Where exactly are you getting this stuff from? Is there a website somewhere that makes these claims? Who ever said that the rapture would occur before Israel became a nation again?

To be honest, I have been following a lot of what you have been saying and the claims that you have been making, things that you claim that the Bible says, simply cannot be substantiated by even a cursory reading of the relevant passages.

I'm not getting it from any website. Fallen2grace who is a member here said the rapture is to occur before the rebuilding of Israel. I was just asking him or her if the rapture has already occurred then ? Read all the posts before you comment.

MoonlitWaves · Oct 13, 2007, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by deist

The changes in your life can be attributed to positive thinking. People who follow different religions have also experienced a change in life. How do you account for that ? They feel their particular religion has made them better people too.

It matters not what other people of other religions or even the same religion think, feel or believe. What we as individuals think, feel and believe is our own evidence. Be it the belief in God or not. The point is that no one can refute what each of us feels to be true and correct because it is our own. Tatertot said, "That is the real evidence." And he is correct. The Bible alone is not all the evidence Christian's have. Matter of fact the Bible as we all know is not undeniable evidence. Our undeniable evidence comes from God within us revealing the Truth. This evidence cannot be refuted.

deist · Oct 13, 2007, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves

It matters not what other people of other religions or even the same religion think, feel or believe. What we as individuals think, feel and believe is our own evidence. Be it the belief in God or not. The point is that no one can refute what each of us feels to be true and correct because it is our own. Tatertot said, "That is the real evidence." And he is correct. The Bible alone is not all the evidence Christian's have. Matter of fact the Bible as we all know is not undeniable evidence. Our undeniable evidence comes from God within us revealing the Truth. This evidence cannot be refuted.

Yes that evidence can be refuted. Positive thinking can do many things to a person's life, so can faith, which is just another form of positive thinking. I can worship a cow or a tree, & if I have enough faith in it, & believe it is somehow witnessing to my spirit, that can affect all kinds of changes in my life. In fact, if I pray to the cow or the tree, I'll get just as many alleged answers to my prayers as christians get from their god.