[ETWolverine]

Inthebox brought up an intersting point. He mentioned VA hospitals.

Over the past several months, there has been a huge outcry about the lack of quality care in the VA medial system... a government-run health care system. And no doubt, there is truth to many of those claims.

So, given the state of govenment-run health care for veterans, and the complete FUBAR the government has made of that system, why would anyone trust the government to run a healthcare system for the whole country? Is anybody suffering from the delusion that by adding more people to the government-run healthcare system thaqt the system will somehow become BETTER than the current VA medical system with only a fraction of the numbers that we would see with government-run universal healthcare?

Inthebox is also correct about another point. The original purpose of health insurance was to provide catastrophic care for emergencies. Regular care, preventive medicine, etc. was never supposed to be part of the insurance system... all of that was supposed to be out of pocket.

And the reason for the rise in cost of healthcare that made regular and preventive care so costly that we needed insurance for it is twofold: 1) government intervention and regulation that drives up expenses, and 2) crazy monetary awards for lawsuits against practitioners which requires practitioners to charge more to maintain malpractice insurance. Change those two factors, and we will have made a lot of progress toward making health care and health insurance more affordable without creating a socialized, government-run system.

Elliot

[Emland]

The VA Hospitals - oh, how I hate them. My hubby is forced to go to them when it comes to getting a referral for certain issues that have to do with his Navy disability. We will do whatever it takes to prevent him from actually being treated there.

My dad used his Veteran's benefits and trusted the VA for years when they told him he had chronic heartburn and prescribed Prilosec. When he got to the point that he couldn't eat anything he finally consented to an outside doctor to check him out. He died less than 8 months later of stomach cancer.

You just can't put your healthcare in the hands of the lowest bidder.

[inthebox]

I am not saying the VA health system is bad:


How Veterans' Hospitals Became the Best in Health Care - TIME

Feature Articles: US News and World Report Rates VA Hospital Care - "Top-Notch"


But was pointing out that in some particular instances the private sector has done better.


The infamous "Walter Reed " ironically brought to light how underfunded the VA / Army medical system is.



Grace and Peace

[Skell]

But I would argue that the quality of care in the USA is much better than that of other countries, especially those with "universal health care", where rationing of healthcare is the norm. In those countries, it truly is symptom and disease care rather than health care. Barring the ability to go outside the universal healthare system, the universal healthcare systems are set up to treat symptoms long enough for the patient to wait on the next health care line and get the next treatment. A cure for the disease in question isn't even taken into consideration.

In the USA, quality of care is higher, access to care is better, and innovation is the norm. Methods of treating disease and get at the root cause of disease are being developed daily. For instance, we are this close to finding cures for numeous cancers. No other country is as advanced in cancer research as we are. And the same is true of othe diseases as well.

Elliot

Elliot,

I know you're one for claiming that you don't make statements without providing cold hard facts as evidence to support your claims.

Well would you do us the favour of it here with this statement?

Have you ever lived in or had access to healthcare in a country with Universal Healthcare? What basis is their to your claims that healthcare in the US is much better than that of countries with Universal Healthcare?

How do you know the quality of care is higher?

I live in Australia and we are constantly coming close to finding cures for cancer and numerous other ailments. We have some of the greatest medical professors in the world in many fields of health research. We also have a Universal Healthcare system?

Your broad and sweeping comments on the US healthcare system are simply that. Baseless claims really.

Or is it that you are just like so many others who see no fault whatsoever in your Governments policies and the direction they lead you. If its done in the US it must be right. It's the rest of the world who are wrong!!

Im not saying the US healthcare system isn't good. Hell it may be the best in the world. But what point are you trying to make by starting a thread making baseless claims?

[Skell]

and I guess if I start introducing other foreign health care policies to americans, I will be attacked again?!:D

Yes, more than likely. Don't you dare question US policies with the righty's!!

[nicespringgirl]

Yes, more than likely. Dont you dare question US policies with the righty's!!!

I was about to introduce your country's health care systems... so I guess I should hold on to it for now?:rolleyes:

[inthebox]

Pacific Research Institute • Publications • Michael Moore Confirms that Government Health Care is Sicko

"Moore referred to the Martin Luther King Jr.-Harbor hospital in Los Angeles, where a patient died of a perforated bowel after lying on the emergency room floor for 45 minutes. Since 2004, the hospital has received more than a dozen state and federal safety citations. Hospital errors included leaving sick patients unattended which resulted in death for three of them, giving patients the wrong medications, and using Taser stun guns to restrain psychiatric patients.

This hospital is not private, however. It is owned by the County of Los Angeles. So much for reliable government care. And the private insurers Moore rails against are currently selling health policies laden with government mandates and regulations"


BBC NEWS | Health | UK 'has worst cancer record' - not a recent article though



Americans Spend More on Health Care But Are Not Healthier

"Each country in our study has areas of care where it can learn from the other countries and areas where it could teach others. That tells us that there are opportunities for improvement in the quality of health care in all five countries. "


Grace and Peace

[ETWolverine]

Elliot,

I know you're one for claiming that you don't make statements without providing cold hard facts as evidence to support your claims.

Well would you do us the favour of it here with this statement?

What kind of evidence are you looking for? I have previously provided statistical data on cancer mortality rates which prove that quality of care in the USA is better than in systems with so-called "universal health care". I have also previously provided data regarding wait-times in the universal healthcare systems compared to those in the USA. What additional proof of quality of care would you like?

Have you ever lived in or had access to healthcare in a country with Universal Healthcare? What basis is their to your claims that healthcare in the US is much better than that of countries with Universal Healthcare?

Yes, I did. Or to be more precise, I lived in Israel where there is a "universal healthcare system" in which people DO NOT have access to healthcare. Which is my point. I also have relatives who lived in the UK for several years until one of them got sick... and they came home to get him medical treatment here. I have relatives in Canada who have absolutely NOTHING good to say about accessibility and quality of care in Canada. So yes, my family and I have quite a bit of experiene in "universal health care systems" and our opinion is that they universally SUCK.

On the other hand, I have a brother who is a doctor here in the USA, and I used to work in hospital administration at Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, NY before going into finance. I was also an EMT for many years, and have spent quite a bit of time in hospital emergency rooms. I and my family have quite a bit of experience in the USA's medical system. So we have experience in both systems, and know the strengths and weaknesses of both private and socialized healthcare.

How do you know the quality of care is higher?

Mortality and survival rates of patients within the two systems, for one thing. Accessibility of care and wait-time statistics for another. Comparisons of in-hospital infection and disease statistics for a third. Cleanliness of the hospitals. Inspection reports of hospitals and clinics within both systems. Comparative training and expereince of practitioners. Satisfaction poll statistics. Development of new technologies, medicines and techniques. I could go on, but you get the picture. All these statistics are available from various sources.

I live in Australia and we are constantly coming close to finding cures for cancer and numerous other ailments. We have some of the greatest medical professors in the world in many fields of health research. We also have a Universal Healthcare system?

Yes, you do. And just think how much better it would be if it was a market-driven system rather than a government-run system. You might already have already found those cancer cures.

Your broad and sweeping comments on the US healthcare system are simply that. Baseless claims really.

I disagree. The basis of the claims are all statistical. You just choose to ignore those statistics.

Or is it that you are just like so many others who see no fault whatsoever in your Governments policies and the direction they lead you. If its done in the US it must be right. It's the rest of the world who are wrong!!

Not at all. There is pleanty that the government has done with our healthcare system that is terrible. The fact that flu-vaccines can only be purchased by the US government (at prices the government sets and under the government's regulations) and are then distributed to various clinicians based on "need" (as determined by the government) has driven the majority of vaccine manufacturers out of the industry over the past decade, leaving us with a shortage of flu vaccine. The government-run VA Medical system is a shambles, with low-quality care, lowest-bidder equipment and supplies, mismanagement, waste, and terrible malpractice. And there are other obvious examples of terrible mistakes the government has made with regard to healthcare in the country.

Which is exactly why I argue that government should stay out of the health care industry. It is the very fact that I do NOT believe that the government makes good decisions with regard to healthcare that I believe they should stop making those decisions and leave them up to the individuals and providers. That has been my point the whole time.

Im not saying the US healthcare system isn't good. Hell it may be the best in the world. But what point are you trying to make by starting a thread making baseless claims?

Again, there is nothing baseless about it. It is all based on statistical data.

By the way, have you read any of Australian Health Association's or the Doctors Reform Society's reports regarding accessibility of health care in remote areas of Australia and accessibility, quality of care and mortality rates among Aboriginal citizens and Torres Strait Islanders? The Australian "universal health care system" isn't quite as universal as you might think. You should read the reports.

Elliot

[gallivant_fellow]

Most places say 40-50 million Americans have no health care. But the actual truth is, every American has no health care. We do not have a health care system in the US. What we have is a Symptoms and Disease Care System. There is absolutely no system of helping people become healthy.

What about well checks? Most places since the 90's have encouraged patients to stop in regularly to keep track of their height, weight, blood pressure, etc. They track your health for preventative reasons and give you advice on staying healthy. My whole family does this, so I sure hope it exists. It is really messy out there though, especially when some doctors don't even recommend well checks. It is a person's own responsibility to go to the doctor though, they won't come to you.

P.S. - I hope our next pres. Creates a national healthcare system. Lord knows Dubyah never would.

[gallivant_fellow]

I have noticed a lot of people talking about cancer here. Anyone who is the least bit curious about cancer should definitely watch this video! It's about Canada's new cure. It was on the news about a month or so ago.

YouTube - Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

[michealb]

It's actually much older than that DCA has been thought to be a cure for cancer for more than a year now. A lot of research has been done and more still needs to be done. American doctors can prescribe DCA to you if you request it however most will still insist that you use in with other forms of treatment as well. I don't really see this as a failure in capitalism especially since it isn't widely used in the UK or Canada I see it as the failure of the FDA. That has the responsibility to the American people to do the research and make sure the drug is safe and useful for what the drug companies say it does. The drug companies shouldn't have to pay the millions of dollars to get a already approved drug approved for a different purpose this should fall on the FDA's responsibility. A lot of people in the United States are on DCA therapy that has been prescribed by their doctors. However the results have not panned out to be spectacular yet. I suspect in a few years we will have enough data to determine if it is a cure but right now we wait.

[michealb]

Also anyone who things Cuba has better health care should read this.
ABC News: Michael Moore to John Stossel: 'Very Little Debate' About Health Care in Cuba

[iamgrowler]

and I guess if I start introducing other foreign health care policies to americans, I will be attacked again?!:D

Not if you can point to policies/systems without excessive wait times between diagnosis and performance of procedure -- This of course rules out Canada and the UK as paragons.

Or systems artificially propped up by borrowing funds from other services -- This would rule out France, Italy and Germany, of course.

Of course there are the systems propped up by funds generated by a declining natural resources, namely oil -- This, of course, means there is an end date for the Norwegian system, then again, Norway can always fall back on it's 'Progressive' tax codes to make up the difference -- Until their heavily taxed middle income tax base revolts and votes the Socialists out of office, of course.

And then there are the systems in autocratic nations like Cuba and Venezuela, where newly graduated doctors are shown their worth by being handed a machete before being bussed out to the cane fields.

[Skell]

Does anyone believe that WHO holds any significance when it comes to assessing health care or they simply an organisation to be immediately dismissed?

[ETWolverine]

Does anyone believe that WHO holds any significance when it comes to assessing health care or they simply an organisation to be immediately dismissed??

In my opinion, the latter. The UN has a long history of performing "studies" that end up conforming to their preconceived notions, rather than actually gathering information and reporting the facts as they truly are.

WHO's studies are no different from any other UN study... they have pre-determined that POOR PEOPLE throughout the world are all the same, and all lack health care, regardless of the fact that the poorest people in the USA are much more well off than most middle-class people in most third world countries and receive better health care. The result is a skewed report that indicates that the USA has a certain percentage of poor, which must indicate that those poor people are as completely lacking in health care as they would be in some African country. The facts are very different, but WHO isn't interested in facts. They have a certain bias and start from that point, and never bother to obtain or report the facts that would disprove that bias.

Elliot