[N0help4u]

I didn't know Excon was an atheist I thought he was agnostic (besides Jewish) or something.

[galveston]

May I say something related to what Elliot posted?

I merely wish to point out that there are Christians, and there are others who use the name.

There certainly were times and places when those using the Name of Christ persecuted anyone who did not agree with them. But that behaviou is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus, the Christ.

In our own time, the Jews have no firmer allies than the Christian community.

I won't say we aren't praying that the Jews will recognize Jesus as their Messiah, because we are.

That is brought about because of Christian love. As the Apostle Paul said, we owe all men the debt of truth.

[galveston]

Hello gal:

I'm not gonna split hairs with you, gal. It may surprise you to learn that I am very much a Jew in all aspects of my life, except my religion... That might be hard to grasp for people who think Judaism is just a religion. It ain't.

But, I WILL cop to being an argument waiting to happen. Is that good enough?

excon

I thought so!!

Love it!! :)

[excon]

But, I WILL cop to being an argument waiting to happen.

Hello again, gal:

Did you know that being argumentative is a VERY Jewish trait? Just look at the Wolverine, for crying out loud. Anyway, that's why we make such good lawyers. That may even be why I'm so versed in the law. It's in my genes...

Yes, I know there's an affinity between Evangelicals and Jews. I know too, that a Christian who walks the walk, doesn't need to talk the talk. I know what's in your heart, gal.

excon

[galveston]

Hello again, gal:

Did you know that being argumentative is a VERY Jewish trait?

excon

Hmmmmmm?

[ETWolverine]

May I say something related to what Elliot posted?

I merely wish to point out that there are Christians, and there are others who use the name.

There certainly were times and places when those using the Name of Christ persecuted anyone who did not agree with them. But that behaviou is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus, the Christ.

In our own time, the Jews have no firmer allies than the Christian community.

I won't say we aren't praying that the Jews will recognize Jesus as their Messiah, because we are.

That is brought about because of Christian love. As the Apostle Paul said, we owe all men the debt of truth.

I don't dispute any of this. I am only trying to relay what OUR EXPERIENCE has been.

From the point of view the one being persecuted, does it matter whether the person burning your house, raping your wife and daughter, and stealing your belongings is really a Christian or just calls himself a Christian? From out point of view, we were persecuted for nearly two millennia in the name of Christianity and the name of Jesus. FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE a prayer that ends "in Jesus' name" could be off-putting and could make a Jew feel left out. That's all I'm saying.

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

Hmmmmmm?

excon's right about that one, gal.

[galveston]

excon's right about that one, gal.

And all this time I thought I was Irish!:D

I do understand what you are saying Elliot.

I expect there is no answer to the problem, if it IS a problem.

In anyone's prayer, a Deity is being addressed. For the Christian, that Deity is the same one that Jews pray to.

It's just that we accept what Jesus said about His being the only way to the Father. So for us, the name of Jesus is either spoken or implied.

That brings up the question of how can anyone know (otherwise) just what deity may be addressed? Is it a Buddhist prayer? A Pagan prayer?

The potential for offense is always present. When it comes to public prayer, we just either go along with it or ignore it.

It's not like we were in a place of worship dedicated to the God we honor.

PS: What is the proper way that a devout Jew addresses YAH? (Just so I'll know)

[ETWolverine]

And all this time I thought I was Irish!:D

I do understand what you are saying Elliot.

I expect there is no answer to the problem, if it IS a problem.

In anyone's prayer, a Deity is being addressed. For the Christian, that Deity is the same one that Jews pray to.

It's just that we accept what Jesus said about His being the only way to the Father. So for us, the name of Jesus is either spoken or implied.

That brings up the question of how can anyone know (otherwise) just what deity may be addressed? Is it a Buddhist prayer? A Pagan prayer?

The potential for offense is always present. When it comes to public prayer, we just either go along with it or ignore it.

It's not like we were in a place of worship dedicated to the God we honor.

PS: What is the proper way that a devout Jew addresses YAH? (Just so I'll know)

"Hashem" is what we say when NOT in prayer. That is the common way of addressing or referring to G-d in Orthodox Judaism. It literally means "The Name", which refers to the fact that we are not supposed to name Him (take his name in vain) except in prayer or service to Him.

In prayer there are many different names used for Him, depending on what prayer is being said. Each of G-d's many names refers to an Aspect of his nature, and so different names are used when we are praying for him to invoke a particular aspect. For instance, if I were invoking his aspect of mercy, I would use the term "ado-nai" which is the term that refers to G-d's mercy. If I were asking for protection from enemies, I might use "elokai tzivakot" which means "Lord of Hosts" or "Master of Armies" or as I like to say "WarLord", which invokes the aspect of G-d that fights on our behalf.

But for your purposes, "Hashem" is the correct usage.

Elliot

[hheath541]

It divides who you are praying to.

When they prayed to a "mother goddess" at a music event I walked out till the prayer was over.

If you are not christian, merely don't pray with a christian prayer.

I'm just slightly confused. Are you saying they were using a christian prayer when praying to their mother goddess?

[paraclete]

I'm just slightly confused. are you saying they were using a christian prayer when praying to their mother goddess?

Sounds like they might have been referring to Mary, Chuck, no doubt many are confused about her status

[inthebox]

Hi guys,

I'd like to weigh in on this.

I understand where excon is coming from. I'm an Orthodox Jew, for those of you who didn't already know, so I have some similar thoughts as excon on this issue.

The question that has been asked here is why excon would be offended if a prayer was ended with "in Jesus' Name, Amen". And excon has tried, rather well, to explain why he feels the way he feels. I think he's done a good job of explaining the feeling of being left out.

But from my perspective, there's more to it than that.

To us, the very name of "Jesus" brings up thoughts of persecutions. After the death of Jesus, the Jews were persecuted terribly by Rome. In fact, this week (Thursday to be exact) is the anniversary of the destruction of the Great Temple by Rome, and the massacres that came along with it. Those persecutions under Rome lasted for centuries.

Then, begining with the 2nd and 3rd Century CE, as the Christian Church grew in prominence, the name "Jesus" became symbolic of prosecutions by the Church and its members. Everything from the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Blood Libels, and various small and large pogroms came from the Christians yelling "Jesus killers" at us. In fact, the lie that we had killed Jesus was considered part of Church doctrine until only very recently.

Then there are the incidents throughout history of our children being taken from us by Christians and being converted to Christianity. Even today, groups like Jews for Jesus (which is really an arm of the Southern Baptist Church) still try to convert uneducated/unaffiliated Jews to Christianity by trying to convince them that beliefe in Jesus is somehow a part of the Jewish religion, when it is not. We Jews consider this to be an attack on Jewish souls... and such attacks have been very successful. We consider that an anthema to our religion. You may consider it "bringing that person closer to Jesus and G-d", but we consider it a deliberate attack on the souls of Jews.

In short, our history with Jesus and the invocation of Jesus' name is not a good one.

Is it any wonder that prayers to Jesus on in Jesus' name would make a Jew feel uncomfortable?

Should we feel that way? Perhaps not. But you can't discount that much history as an emotional motivator.

I'm not going to ask you guys to agree with our point of view on this. The point of view comes with a national history that most of you don't share with us. But I will ask you how you would feel if that WERE your point of view.

If you were a Jew, with all that history in your background, how would you feel about a Christian prayer? Would it make you uncomfortable? Would it make you feel left out?

Think about it.

Elliot

Thanks for explaining it from your [ and Ex's ? ] point of view.


Personally, I don't like praying in public, but that's just me .







G&P

[Athos]

No prayer is diminished by leaving out the name of Jesus. In fact, in a public gathering like a NASCAR race, I'm surprised Jesus' name is even brought up. Surely, there are people other than Christians watching the race. It is, at least, bad form and, at worst, insulting to non-Christians.

[jakester]

excon and ETWolverine -

I'm sympathetic to both of you because I have spoken with many Jews about this same topic and have grown in my appreciation for the struggles of Jews across the world. I understand that sometimes Jews are harassed by "Christians" and are targets for other anti-Semitic aggression.

Elliot, I do want to make a couple of points that I think are worth noting.

First, I totally agree that throughout history, Jews have often been the targets of "Christians." I use the term "Christian" because as one myself, it angers me when I read history and see that "Christians" were doing the kinds of things to Jews that they did. The reason being that anti-Semitism is something that the New Testament of the bible I read says is at odds with genuine faith. Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew. Saul of Tarsus was a Jew. Peter and James and John were Jews. The teachings of the early Church were founded upon the Law and the Prophets and to purposely hate Jews was to go against Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. So, it puzzles me how people claiming to be Christians could purposely attack Jews. To me, I can only conclude one thing: that they were never Christians but were merely acting in the same spirit of Haman, in the book of Esther.

Corrie ten Boom was a Dutch Christian during the Holocaust. She risked her life to protect Jews from the Nazi SS. She fed kosher food to observant Jews and even honored the Jewish Sabbath with them. She hid Jews in a room that was built in her home from the Nazis. In 1944 the ten Booms were arrested by the Nazis and sent to Scheveningen prison in the Netherlands. Her father died 10 days later. Afterwards, the ten Booms were shuffled around and Corrie and her sister Betsie were sent to the Ravensbruck concentration camp in Germany, where Corrie's sister later died. If these people did not care for Jews, they would have never been sent to prison and Corrie's father and sister would not have died. But they died for their belief in the God of Israel and their love for Jews as God's chosen people. I would be willing to suffer a similar fate for a Jew because I believe that God's love is for Israel and I desire to be of the same mind with God, even if it means giving my life for it.

Corrie ten Boom was honored as Righteous Among the Nations by the State of Israel, so you know that Israel was appreciative of the sacrifices of people like her and her family. There are countless others who did the same who are also honored as Righteous Among the Nations.

It is understandable why you cringe at prayers invoking the name of Jesus because I know you equate the name Jesus with the persecution of Jews. But I say that it is easy to say I am a Christian. It is even easier to say I am a Christian and hate Jews when already have a disposition against them. In other words, if I already hate Jews, merely affiliating myself with a group or religion is really a formality... my hatred existed whether I was a Christian or not. Take the Palestinians for example. They believe in God (Allah) and hate your people to the point of blowing themselves up to kill Jews. So hatred is really irrespective of religion, I argue. There are non-religious people who hate Jews and religious people who hate Jews and what unites them is their hatred, not their religion, in my opinion.

True Christianity teaches to love my neighbor as myself... that includes Jews. Jesus was a Jew. I think his teaching was richly Jewish and supportive of Israel as a nation because he claimed to be the one who would bring the promises of Abraham to both the Jews and Gentiles, to accomplish what Saul said in Ephesians:

"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility."

What I mean by this is that for centuries, Jews and Gentiles have been at odds with each other... hostile. Saul taught that Jesus came to bring an end to that hostility by bringing together Jews and Gentiles, fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah where it is written:

Thus says God, the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and what comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it:
6 “I am the Lord; I have called you in righteousness;
I will take you by the hand and keep you;
I will give you as a covenant for the people,
A light for the nations,
7 to open the eyes that are blind,
To bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
From the prison those who sit in darkness.

However you take this (who the LORD is talking about), he clearly intended to bring light (wisdom and understanding) to the nations (goyim), to open their eyes to the ways of the LORD so that they might know him.

My overall point is that it is important to make a distinction between who you real enemies are and who you think your enemies are. A true disciple of Jesus Christ does not raise his hand against a Jew but embraces him as a brother.

[ETWolverine]

Jakester,

Thanks for the comments. They are appreciated.

I do not mean to say that we are particularly worried that in the USA there is going to be someone or some group that is going to deliberately persecute us. Frankly, with the exception of a few fruits and nuts on the fringes (the KKK on the FAR right and the Muslim Brotherhood on the FAR left) this country has been very good to Jews.

The mechanism that I am explaining takes place at a very subconscious level. It's not that someone from the Jewish community is specifically saying that NASCAR fans are Jew-haters or anything like that. (In my experience, NASCAR fans are also some of the greatest supporters of Israel and the Jewish People in the world.)

No, it's much more subtle... it's a subconscious cringe that takes place when we are in the presence of those who happen to be invoking the name of Jesus in prayer. We generally know that no offense is intended, nor do we intend any offense toward them. It's just a "feeling" that we get.

I'm not saying that the Christians among us need to make any changes. I wouldn't want you to. I am just recognizing a cultural reaction on the part of Jews (excon's reaction is not an uncommon one among Jews of all backgrounds) and I'm trying to explain why it occurs. I am neither asking for change from anyone else nor expecting it.

Thanks for your feedback, Jake. It's appreciated.

Elliot

[hheath541]

Jakester,

Thanks for the comments. They are appreciated.

I do not mean to say that we are particularly worried that in the USA there is going to be someone or some group that is going to deliberately persecute us. Frankly, with the exception of a few fruits and nuts on the fringes (the KKK on the FAR right and the Muslim Brotherhood on the FAR left) this country has been very good to Jews.

The mechanism that I am explaining takes place at a very subconscious level. It's not that someone from the Jewish community is specifically saying that NASCAR fans are Jew-haters or anything like that. (In my experience, NASCAR fans are also some of the greatest supporters of Israel and the Jewish People in the world.)

No, it's much more subtle... it's a subconscious cringe that takes place when we are in the presence of those who happen to be invoking the name of Jesus in prayer. We generally know that no offense is intended, nor do we intend any offense toward them. It's just a "feeling" that we get.

I'm not saying that the Christians among us need to make any changes. I wouldn't want you to. I am just recognizing a cultural reaction on the part of Jews (excon's reaction is not an uncommon one among Jews of all backgrounds) and I'm trying to explain why it occurs. I am neither asking for change from anyone else nor expecting it.

Thanks for your feedback, Jake. It's appreciated.

Elliot

I think that happens when anyone, from any religion, hears the god of another religion invoked. I'm not completely sure why. I was raised christian and I still get a knee-jerk attack of mild irritation, I guess is the best word for it, when I hear someone praying and they use jesus' name. I think it's just a reaction to something that is 'other' than you.

I'm sure christians have the same reaction when they hear someone praying to allah or buddha or zues. In fact, I have heard christians complain LOUDLY when they heard someone invoking anyone's name but jesus' in prayer, even if it was a private, personal prayer.

[ETWolverine]

i think that happens when anyone, from any religion, hears the god of another religion invoked. I'm not completely sure why. i was raised christian and i still get a knee-jerk attack of mild irritation, i guess is the best word for it, when i hear someone praying and they use jesus' name. i think it's just a reaction to something that is 'other' than you.

I'm sure christians have the same reaction when they hear someone praying to allah or buddha or zues. in fact, i have heard christians complain LOUDLY when they heard someone invoking anyone's name but jesus' in prayer, even if it was a private, personal prayer.

You may be right that it happens among other people from other religions as well, but I can only comment from my own experience. I have tried very hard to understand my own reactions and the cultural reactions of my people. I am not in a position to comment on the reactions of Christians. I can only speak for myself.

Elliot

[hheath541]

You may be right that it happens among other people from other religions as well, but I can only comment from my own experience. I have tried very hard to understand my own reactions and the cultural reactions of my people. I am not in a position to comment on the reactions of Christians. I can only speak for myself.

Elliot

I think it would take a trained and experienced sociologist several years of study to figure out. I think at least part of it is just a discomfort at hearing a god we don't believe in being worshiped. I just couldn't tell you WHY that is.

[excon]

i think that happens when anyone, from any religion, hears the god of another religion invoked.

Hello h:

That's just not so. I hear people praying and invoking Jesus all the time. It's NOT offensive at all. Nope. Elliot and I are talking about PUBLIC events, like the NASCAR race, or even a baseball game.

I'm happy people pray to their god - just not at PUBLIC events.

excon

[hheath541]

Hello h:

That's just not so. I hear people praying and invoking Jesus all the time. It's NOT offensive at all. Nope. Elliot and I are talking about PUBLIC events, like the NASCAR race, or even a baseball game.

I'm happy people pray to their god - just not at PUBLIC events.

excon

OK. I was going from my personal experience. I don't go to public events that have prayers, or even watch them on TV, so I've never experienced that. I just don't like sports *shrugs*