[De Maria]

Since Jesus told this story as one of his parables, to point out (taken from orthodox.net) that Our Holy Father Abraham, among his numerous virtues, was distinguished in the minds of the Jews for his hospitality. This is also associated with salvation.

"It may here be observed, that all who are offended by us are exposed to our view. But the rich man sees Lazarus not with any other righteous man, but in Abraham's bosom. For Abraham was full of love, but the man is convicted of cruelty. Abraham sitting before his door followed after those that passed by, and brought them into his house, the other turned away even them that abode within his gate." (St John Chrysostom)

To the world, the death of Lazarus, was a non-event. Someone had to grab him, because after all, he would start to smell, and throw him somewhere, into some potter's field. No one came to pray for him. No one cared. No one knew him. The rich man might have noticed after two or three weeks, "Oh the beggar is not there anymore. I don't have to step over him anymore. That's good". His death was of no consequence. It did not cause a ripple in the life of that time.

But he did NOT die alone, and his death was a matter of great rejoicing in the heavens, because the angels escorted him into Abraham's bosom. What does it say about those that die who are righteous, and the appearances, both in this world , and the REAL appearances in the next? Solomon says, "But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and there shall no torment touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure is taken for misery, And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace. For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet is their hope full of immortality. And having been a little chastised" ... Lazarus' wounds were a little bit of chastisement mind you. Don't look at the appearances, look at the truth! And "they shall be greatly rewarded: for God proved them, and found them worthy for himself. As gold in the furnace hath he tried them, and received them as a burnt offering. And in the time of their visitation they shall shine, and run to and fro like sparks among the stubble." (Wisdom 3:1 - 7) So it is with the righteous when they die. The world sees a false picture, but we know the truth.

The rich man's death, although accompanied by great fanfare in the world, with paid mourners, and the playing of flutes, was an unimportant event in the heavens. He was merely buried. This burial, in the bowels of the earth, is meant here to signify that he descending into the lowest depths of Hell.

"He (the rich man, Ed.) died then indeed in body, but his soul was dead before. For he did none of the works of the soul. All that warmth which issues from the love of our neighbor had fled, and he was more dead than his body. But no one is spoken of as having ministered to the rich man's burial as to that of Lazarus. Because when he lived pleasantly in the broad road, he had many busy flatterers; when he came to his end, all forsook him. For it simply follows, and was buried in hell. But his soul also when living was buried, enshrined in its body as it were in a tomb." (St John Chrysostom)

Good job Wondergirl!! I am happy because like a good Catholic you have searched the Church Fathers to see how they who were closest to the Apostles interpreted the Scriptures. You will find that all of them were thoroughly Catholic in their understanding of Scripture.

In Homily #41, St. John Chrysostom also said:
Let us then give them aid and perform commemoration for them. For if the children of Job were purged by the sacrifice of their father, why dost thou doubt that when we too offer for the departed, some consolation arises to them? since God is wont to grant the petitions of those who ask for others. And this Paul signified saying, “that in a manifold Person your gift towards us bestowed by many may be acknowledged with thanksgiving on your behalf.” (2 Cor. i. 11.) Let us not then be weary in giving aid to the departed, both by offering on their behalf and obtaining prayers for them: for the common Expiation of the world is even before us. Therefore with boldness do we then intreat for the whole world, and name their names with those of martyrs, of confessors, of priests. For in truth one body are we all, though some members are more glorious than others; and it is possible from every source to gather pardon321321 συγγνωμήν. for them, from our prayers, from our gifts in their behalf, from those whose names are named with theirs. Why therefore dost thou grieve?
NPNF1-12. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Therefore, since St. John Chrysostom is your authority.

"Again we pray for the repose of the soul(s) of the servant(s) of God, departed this life; and that he (she, they) may be pardoned all his (her, their) sins, both voluntary and involuntary." (From Service Books of the Orthodox Church, Vol. I: the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom).

Do you believe in prayer for the dead? If so, then you are very close to believing in Purgatory.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Wondergirl]

St. John Chrysostom

Do you believe in prayer for the dead?

Did St. John Chrysostom believe in purgatory? That is not mentioned in what I quoted. No, I do not pray to the dead nor do I believe in purgatory.

[rwb1057]

Lets think about it this way, I would rather live Holy, Righteous, and true to Jesus and believe in only heaven and hell (since there is biblical proof for both) than to live my life in sin, and disregard Jesus as my savior and "HOPE" there is a purgatory so I won't have to spend eternity in hell. Eternally with out the presence of God!

[ScottRC]

Lets think about it this way, I would rather live Holy, Righteous, and true to Jesus and believe in only heaven and hell (since there is biblical proof for both) than to live my life in sin, and disregard Jesus as my savior and "HOPE" there is a purgatory so I won't have to spend eternity in hell.

I guess you have not been paying attention to the thread... NO ONE in purgatory goes to hell.... and if you have been living a life worthy of hell, that's where you go ---> not to heaven.

[Wondergirl]

I guess you have not been paying attention to the thread.... NO ONE in purgatory goes to hell.... and if you have been living a life worthy of hell, that's where you go ---> not to heaven.

He didn't say that.

[ScottRC]

He didn't say that.

Okey dokey.

But he did say "to live my life in sin, and disregard Jesus as my savior and "HOPE" there is a purgatory so I won't have to spend eternity in hell"... and this is not even CLOSE to the teaching on purgatory, so I don't know what his point actually is then...

If one were to live their life in sin and disregard Jesus as their savior they would most likely go to hell... so again, I'm not sure what this has to do with purgatory, which only deals with people who are going to HEAVEN.

Thanks for clearing this up.

[ScottRC]

Did St. John Chrysostom believe in purgatory? That is not mentioned in what I quoted. No, I do not pray to the dead nor do I believe in purgatory.

The point is that Chrysostom DID advocate prayers for the dead:

"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice (Job 1:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them." (St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians c. 392 A.D.)

"Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them [the deceased] to the extant of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf." (St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians c. 402 A.D.)


From this you should understand:

1. Those in heaven do not need consolation... they are in HEAVEN!
2. Those in hell can not be helped at all... they are lost.
3. Sooooo.... prayers for the dead are for those who are in a state of purification, who need consolation and who will eventually be in heaven---> purgatory.:)

[N0help4u]

JOB 1:5

WHERE do you get that Jobs sons were dead at this point??

It says

And his possession was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a family exceedingly great: and this man was great among all the people of the east. 4 And his sons went, and made a feast by houses, every one in his day. And sending, they called their three sisters, to eat and drink with them. And made a feast by houses... That is, each made a feast in his own house and had his day, inviting the others, and their sisters. 5 And when the days of their feasting were gone about, Job sent to them, and sanctified them: and rising up early, offered holocausts for every one of them. For he said: Lest perhaps my sons have sinned, and have blessed God in their hearts. So did Job all days.

If your RCC gets this means Job sacrificed anything to his dead sons then it further proves to me that they twist scripture and I HAVE to agree with Tjs that we are not the ones doing the twisting NOR are we the ones doing private interpretation.

It isn't until Job 1:18 his family dies.

[sndbay]

Clearly from what I read from Fred's understands is that by the Grace of God, who is Chirst, we are saved. The " if " added to the saving grace is to assure the understanding of a double minded person, which means ( evil doing - righteous belief) They will not enter heaven.. This is true...

What I find not true is the post #504 Scott just mentioned---> Sooooo... prayers for the dead are for those who are in a state of purification, who need consolation and who will eventually be in heaven---> purgatory

NO NO NO..That statement Scott, does suggest that a person or people can work out their own salvation by the help of man. It just is not true.. Each of us has to be accountable for their own actions, and belief. Only by Christ, who is the Grace of God can each be saved. It is vanity to think once someone is dead, {{you}} as a man can help save them.

[N0help4u]

JOHN 1:13 speaking of being born again
Says
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

MEANING that NO man can will you into heaven while you are alive, while you are dead, nor can they pray you into heaven, nor sacrifice anything on your behalf to get you out of purgatory.

Reading that any of that is possible is reading stuff into verses. I prefer to not believe in Purgatory BECAUSE you HAVE to read too much into the verses AND take them out of context!

People CAN pray for you to come to Christ but the rest is on the individual.

[ScottRC]

It is vanity to think once someone is dead, {{you}} as a man can help save them.

Some of us believe "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." and some of us don't... :cool:

[N0help4u]

Some of us believe "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." and some of us don't..... :cool:

Like I already said YES that is true and sndbay DOES believe that I am 100% sure
BUT that means the prayer of the righteous man availeth much MEANING DURING this life time. The Bible clearly teaches that once you die that is it heaven or hell nothing in between.
Getting Purgatory out of anything is reading things into the Bible.

[ScottRC]

BUT that means the prayer of the righteous man availeth much MEANING DURING this life time.

I guess God forget to make this clear in the bible, eh?

The Bible clearly teaches that once you die that is it heaven or hell nothing in between.

Right... purgatory is not "between" anything.

Getting Purgatory out of anything is reading things into the Bible.

Ah, I get it... Catholic interpretation is "reading things into the Bible" and non-Catholic interpretation is simply the Bible speaking for itself... rrrrrrright.;)

[Lilmkiss]

Lilmekiss,
There is no bible passage that says we are save by faith alone.
There none that way we are save by works alone.'But there are many that say we are saved by the grace of God If we have faith an WORK that faith for a "faith without works is dead".
That has nothing to do with the fact that Purgatory does or does not exist.
There is NO passages that prove that Purgatory does not exist, nine zilch.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

AGAIN THIS IS A DANGEROUS FALICY yes we are saved by faith and faith alone not by workds according to

Ephesians 2

Made Alive in Christ
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So please do read your Bible and search what you are saying is correct because this in its self is a 100% contradiction what you have stated and was disproven by these verses.

(added part)and when it comes to the verse that said "faith without works is dead" "and works without faith are dead". Was a statement that you could not be in
Christ if you produce no froot and the second stament means that without faith that the froot that you produce is bad that's what this is saying it is by no means a way to say that you have to work to go to heven but it is a means to say that if you are with christ that you will do good works without thinking about what you can get out of it.

May God enter you mind soul and heart and let him teach you the truth so that no man will fool you.
Your praying brother in Christ
Lilmkiss

[Lilmkiss]

Okey dokey.

But he did say "to live my life in sin, and disregard Jesus as my savior and "HOPE" there is a purgatory so I won't have to spend eternity in hell"... and this is not even CLOSE to the teaching on purgatory, so I don't know what his point actually is then...

If one were to live their life in sin and disregard Jesus as their savior they would most likely go to hell... so again, I'm not sure what this has to do with purgatory, which only deals with people who are going to HEAVEN.

Thanks for clearing this up.

They will go to hell plain and simple.

[ScottRC]

They will go to hell plain and simple.

I don't care to limit the divine mercy of God... only He truly knows who is lost.

Peace be with you.

[N0help4u]

I agree don't limit the divine mercy of God and that is ONE of the reasons I can't see him setting up a purgatory cause to me it is like saying my almighty powers are limited and so therefore have to go through this channel.

Sort of like in the Wizard of Oz when he sent them for the witches broom so they could go back to Kansas when all he had to do was send them back to Kansas!

[Peter Wilson]

Not sure where you guys are up to, I have only read up to page 48, so here is some more information.
Abrahams bosom.
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and was using their teaching to explain a greater truth, (an allegory perhaps?), the Pharisees taught that there were three places, 1.Abraham's bosom, 2. Under the throne of Glory, 3. In the garden of Eden.(Gr. Paradise)
Speaking of death, they would say," This day he sits in Abraham's bosom.'
(Lightfoot, 'Works' vol xii, pp 159-63)
The Pharisees also taught that in life, two men may be "coupled together ", and one sees the other after death, and conversations take place.
(Lightfoot)
The Pharisees gave long stories of similar imaginary conversations and discourses.
(Lightfoot)

In Ephesians 4

7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.
8This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."
9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

I 1 Peter

18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

I'm not sure if these were the same captives that Jesus set free, according to Isaiah 61, but in John 5, Jesus says -

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

The time had come THEN for the dead to hear His voice, and those that believed in Him from before time past, that is, the promise of His coming and had faith in him as their Messiah, these were the prisoners that were set free and led in His train to heaven.

These are those that were risen from the dead in Mathew 27

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

These were Old Testament folk, who were taken to Heaven with Jesus, (note, no purgatory).

There is more, but I'm going to bed, night folks.
Peace.:)

[N0help4u]

Once again for any one to claim private interpretation, It seems odd that I would also have the same 'private interpretation' on the Bible as Peter Wilson. Odd how the Holy Spirit shows us the same thing and it is considered 'private interpretation'

[ScottRC]

I agree don't limit the divine mercy of God and that is ONE of the reasons I can't see him setting up a purgatory cause to me it is like saying my almighty powers are limited and so therefore have to go through this channel.

I can understand that... and I appreciate your comments... we can disagree (this topic certainly does not have anything to do with our relationship with Christ) because in the end, I think everyone has to admit we're just "guessing" and none of us have any special insight into the mystery that is our life after death.

Once again for any one to claim private interpretation, It seems odd that I would also have the same 'private interpretation' on the Bible as Peter Wilson. Odd how the Holy Spirit shows us the same thing and it is considered 'private interpretation'

Again, it seems that it's only "odd" when it's a non-Catholic opinion... when Catholics agree with each other and the last 2,000 or so years of Catholic teaching we're just following the "traditions of man"-----> and when you folks do it, you have "divine revelation".

Arians made up more than 50% of the Christian faith at one point... so 'private' means independent of Apostolic authority, be it one person or one million.