[excon]

Hello again, clete:

The goal Ex was not to get an agreement, the goal was to punish the use of weapons BO told him not to use

How do YOU know what the goal was? All I know, is that he WON... And, he WON BIG!

Excon

[paraclete]

So you think BO is devious enough to cry wolf so that Assad will give up his weapons, the one thing that gives him real advantage and a barganing chip, do you think he doesn't remember daffy who gave up his atomic program, etc and look where it got him a cruise missile where it hurts the most. Assad has agreed if BO backs down, but we are still hearing the same tune from Kerry.

What I see here is the debate has moved from outright aggression to conciliation, the bluff has worked but only because Assad has other problems and he doesn't need another enemy and now the hard part is how to enforce it without troops on the ground

[speechlesstx]

You're right, we don't know what the goal was because Obama had given us "one of the more stunning and inexplicable displays of presidential incompetence that I’ve ever witnessed."

Obama and Syria: Stumbling Toward Damascus | TIME.com

I'm having a hard time believing your really that duped about some alleged victory.


















Have us have a sneaking suspicion you're going to be eating crow.

[paraclete]

Ex doesn't eat crow he just ducks and we don't hear from him for a while

[excon]

Hello again,

I don't need my president to tell me he got a great victory... With my own two eyes, I can see it..

Look. If I'm in a fight, and before I can land a blow, the other guy trips on the carpet and cracks his head on the fireplace, I won. I don't care that I did NOTHING, I won.

Now, I don't know IF the scenario was scripted or not.. I believe I read where tom thinks it was.. But, that's a detail that matters NOT. A victory was achieved EVEN if it wasn't supposed to. What interests me is the VICTORY, not how it was achieved.

excon

[smoothy]

Putin is who won... Obama got punked...

[excon]

Hello again, smoothy:

Putin is who won... Obama got punked...

Let's review, shall we? Obama THREATENED to strike Syria because of their use of chemical weapons.. UPON being threatened, Syria AGREES to give them up, and YOU call that a defeat.

Like I said earlier, this crazy world I live in just got crazier, and then even crazier than that..

Excon

[smoothy]

Kerry opened his mouth... got chewed out for doing it, ON VIDEO TAPE SEVERAL TIMES... Putin caught wind of what he said and knowing how the administration publicly admonished Kerry for it... then because of that Putin forced then to make a 180 degree flip flop and try to pretend it was their plan all along...

Yeah... only a democrat can call that a win.

[paraclete]

In case you haven't noticed no one has won, the Syrian civil war goes on and people are dying and they don't see a victory. I'm harkened to the movie Troy and the discussion between Achillies and Agammendon and Achillies says apparently you won some great victory today. Now what we have is BO playing Agammendon to Putin's Achillies

[smoothy]

They can film Obama falling head over heels down the stairs... and Democrats would be proclaiming how gracefully he descended down the stairs.

[tomder55]

Let's review . First the emperor stumbles badly by declaring a red line that he has no intention of enforcing ( an air campaign will not eliminate Assad's capacity to use cw in the future... only direct commitment to regime change would achieve that ) .The emperor then says he'll use force by executive authority after cw was used by one of the parties in the conflict.. . then he takes a walk in the Rose Garden and says he wants Congressional approval because that's the Constitutional way to proceed... then he says he will use his executive authority to attack regardless of what Congress decides.
Then JF Kerry makes an unbelievably stupid gaff that undermines everything the emperor has said . (btw I floated the possibility of orchestration because I did not think even Kerry would be stupid enough to stumble so badly... subsequent events ,like his being completely ill-prepared to articulate a coherent policy at Geneva this week convinces me that nothing of the sort happened... even as the emperor tries to spin it that he and Vladdy discussed it at the G-20. )
Then Putin ,recognizing this error and leaps on the opportunity to introduce HIS initiative . Then after Syria goes along with Putin's opening gambit ,and the emperor is forced to postpone his attack ,Putin starts adding provisos that the plan is conditional to guarantees that the emperor will not unleash American might on the Assad regime... knowing that preventing American attacks on Syrian air assets guarantees a victory for the Assad regime in the civil war.
So where do we stand today ? Kerry is getting mocked by his counterpart in the Kremlin ,Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, who told Kerry he talks too much . There is no guarantees on the table that indicate that the Syrians will dismantle their cw program. Nothing even close... in fact just the opposite has happened . Assad has used the time to move his cw from known locations to unknown locations throughout the regime controlled strongholds. He has renewed his air campaign against the rebels . This reversal by the emperor may in fact be the decisive moment where the Syrian civil war is won by the regime and his patrons in Moscow and Tehran.
Meanwhile the emperor will never get Congressional approval to strike further weakening his position here ,at Geneva ,and at the UN .
Best guess at this point is that the US ,Russia and China make a face saving deal in the UNSC for the introduction of UN inspectors to inspected closed and abandoned facilities in Syria and declare Assad's weapons accounted for. The US will continue to arm AQ ,jihadists and other cut throats and keep the civil war ongoing indefinitely . Another 100,000 Syrians will die from conventional weapons and other war crimes and atrocities.

[paraclete]

Another 100,000 Syrians will die from conventional weapons and other war crimes and atrocities.

I think you got this part right the rest is conjecture with a small measure of truth. What has emerged here is that Putin is more adept at diplomacy than we thought and Kerry incrediably stupid, even the Russians are laughing

I think it is time to hand in your world policeman badge and take a job in local security

[talaniman]

They obviously watch our politics closer than we watch their's is my take on this, and know us better than we know them. Ever here the old saying about he who has the last laugh, laughs best?

The UN is involved now and as soon as Syria signs on the dotted line they become subject to international law which is quite comprehensive and our rockets and ships are going nowhere. Obama and Kerry rattled a very sharp saber that got attention so laugh if you want to. Russia and Syria are not. They are scrambling with a false face of bravado, that hides true fear the US will undermine Assad military and change the tide of war.

Enjoy your box seat in the peanut gallery, and the luxury of squealing and criticism free of charge. This is just getting started.

[talaniman]

Excellent move by Putin to cover Syria's butt and how I have always said. Russia could have at any point whispered "cool it" in Assad's ear at any time in the past.

Did you know Tom, as a signatory to the ban on CW, any country can challenge Assad's assertions that he has turned all his weapons over? And the safest place to conduct these inspections is in Russian controlled area by the sea, or aboard a Russian cargo ship. Indeed, Putin has assumed a responsibility that quiet as its kept is what the Russians wanted.

Assad has a week to reveal his stockpile, and inspections starting in November. The president said this morning the military will remain ready to act at any violations going forward.

[tomder55]

There is zero chance to get full disclosure in a week. If we peddle that then we are a major player in Kabuki theater... or maybe that threat of bombing was the Kabuki . Only in the theater of the absurd does rhetorical gaffs like 'red line' ,and Kerry's hypothetical become the basis of policy .

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

I agree. It's NOT the way to run foreign policy... Yet, a victory is a victory, even if you backed into it.

excon

PS> I'll just add that given our problems over there, (two wars LOST) and given the Arab Spring, NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY had a realistic policy to deal with it. Yes, that INCLUDES right wingers. It's EASY to shoot bullets from where you're standing, but you're guys have NO answer either.

Rand Paul wants to attack Syria, or doesn't. He wants to KILL Assad, or doesn't. Putin is a good guy, or not... He's mixed up FAR more than Obama is.

excon

[talaniman]

Tom, when will you learn that flexibility is our foreign policy seeing as we have no control over the tribal civil wars in the rest of the world. All we can do is influence who we can for a better outcome for our and our allies interests.

I know you guys never negotiate, or compromise your principles(?) but that hasn't worked well for us here at home, so I say since a road map to diplomacy has presented itself, lets work with what we got, since that's all we got, by design or luck. The one week deadline is but a starting point and I think if nothing else Obama and Kerry have much experience negotiating with those that use obstruction and delay as a tactic.

Thanks wingers, you have taught the prez well about dealing with insincere and intransigent partners.

[speechlesstx]

I'm still wondering what we won. Putin kicked Obama's a$$.

[talaniman]

Wishful thinking, Obama got Putin off his A$$ and involved, hell he got everybody off the sidelines, and involved. It's you guys making that a$$hole a hero.

[excon]

Hello again, Steve

I'm still wondering what we won.

Let me see if I can help.. We were headed for WAR, and now we're not. That's a WIN. Assad gassed his people, and now he's not. That TOO is a WIN. In fact, he's going to give his weapons up, and that's CLEARLY a WIN.

Look. Your hatred for the black guy in the White House will absolutely PREVENT you from acknowledging the OBVIOUS victory, no matter what the facts are on the ground.. All I can do is gently prod you back to reality.

Excon

PS> I must say, that the depths of right wing HATE goes beyond that which even I could imagine... Never did I think I'd see the day when the right wing would PRAISE a murdering commie sonofab1ch (Grozny), over our own president...

If YOU'RE not embarrassed to do that, I'm embarrassed for you.