[NeedKarma]

This is a religious belief and i respect that.

How can it be a religious belief when there are no sacred texts, no gods, no worshipping involved, no rituals, etc?

Also you missed my question to you about the tooth fairy and santa claus.

[beatlejuice]

Okey fine, so I am right! There is no such thing as an atheist. An agnostic, yes. You just admitted I am right. You don't KNOW there is a god. Good. That's all I was trying to prove.

[beatlejuice]

How can it be a religious belief when there are no sacred texts, no gods, no worshipping involved, no rituals, etc?

Also you missed my question to you about the tooth fairy and santa claus.

I was just trying to emphasize that we don't know anything beyond the things we are familiar with. There could be a creature called a tooth fairy out there in the universe and you can not prove to me that there isn't so that's the point I am trying to make. I KNOW for a fact that santa did not put the gifts on the christmas tree because I put them there. But I know God changed my life and instantly cured my adictions and changed my life and my desires. That alone was a miracle because I was just as skeptical and non believing as all the atheist on here. But when I humbled myself and stopped pretending I know everything God showed me his power and that is all the evidence I need to know he exists. I can sit here and eat this apple and tell you it tastes good and you can sit where ever you are and tell me it doesn't, but until you actually taste it for yourself you are not in a position to tell me it doesn't taste good.

A Religious belief does not have to have worship sacret text etc.
Religion can be defined as "A cause, principle, belief or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion" So because it is not a belief based on Scientific evidence it is a religious belief and athiests are just as zelous and devout to their beliefs.

[jillianleab]

beatlejuice : Okey fine, so I am right! There is no such thing as an atheist. An agnostic, yes. You just admitted I am right. You don't KNOW there is a god. Good. That's all I was trying to prove.

Wrong. By definition, I am an atheist if I say, "There is no god". I have said, "There is no god" therefore I am an atheist. YOU have said, "I don't know if there is a god, but I THINK there is one. That makes you an agnostic. I affirm there is no god, I, personally, am certain there is no god. You, on the other hand, are not willing to affirm, only to say you believe. You have a problem with someone affirming the existence/nonexistence of god, santa, the tooth fairy, unicorns, etc. I do not. You are an agnostic, I am an atheist. You are the only one who as a problem with affirming the existence or nonexistence of god, santa, the tooth fairy, unicorns, etc.

You have proved nothing other than you are an agnostic. Now, if you would like to say, "There is a god" then you are not an agnostic, but your little rant about how little we know, how it is your belief, etc kinda makes you look foolish then. I'll be willing to look over that however, if you would like to say you know for certain there is a god, instead of saying you BELIEVE there is a god. Do you see the difference between the two? Saying "I believe there is a god" is quite different than saying "I know there is a god".

[NeedKarma]

A Religious belief does not have to have worship sacret text etc.
Religion can be defined as "A cause, principle, belief or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion" So because it is not a belief based on Scientific evidence it is a religious belief and athiests are just as zelous and devout to their beliefs.

You don't seem to grasp that for atheists there is no 'activity pursued' with any "zeal or conscientious devotion". They don't believe there is a god and get along their lives without even thinking about it. They don't congregate to talk about science. Scientific evidence is not a belief, it's evidence that you or I could see. Why are you so fixated on giving everyone a label defined by you?

[Synnen]

I think the problem here is that "belief" and "religion" are being interchanged here.

Atheists (to my knowledge--please correct me if I'm wrong) don't have a religion--how could they, when religion is a group of beliefs shared by a group of people, with pretty good guidelines as to what actually is believed.

They also don't believe in a god. ANY god. That doesn't mean they only believe in science! Why that keeps getting thrown in there is beyond me--as if science is a substitute for a god! They believe in themselves, and that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, and that someday there will be a cure for cancer, and that the unexplainable is just that--unexplainable! Well... unexplainable so far, anyway!

The problem arises when people who DO believe try to understand it. To them, it's like there should be a hole in atheists, where god should be (any god, not just the Christian god). That's not true! To an atheist, they are just as whole as any believer!

Beatle--you DO come across as trying to sell your religion, if only because you argue the beliefs (or lack of them) of the atheists in this thread. Could you REALLY explain your god to someone who had NEVER heard of Him before, and NOT have them scoff at you? Heck, I grew up with Christianity, and I scoff at it!

This may just be the "tone" of your words as read by others, and not what you mean, but you come across as preachy simply because you seem to question the beliefs of those to whom the original questions were asked.

Really--if questioned why you believe in something so fantastical as a virgin giving birth to a kid who grew up, walked on water, changed water into wine, and died like a criminal--and that kid is a GOD? --would you be able to come up with anything other than faith that founds your beliefs in something so fantastical?

(before I get it from the Christians--remember that every religion has its fantastic side--that's part of what makes it awe-inspiring).

Well, atheists have faith that there is no god. You believe in Christ, I believe in the Lady, and they believe that we all have the ability to change the world.

[firmbeliever]

Beatle,
I think you could start a new thread and ask the questions you wish to ask to atheist/agnostics or other faiths.

This thread has been alive for a while and I would like to keep it that way.

Hopefully it will last a bit longer too.

Thank you.:)

[beatlejuice]

I am too lazy to read all this. But what I get from skimming through I don't agree

[ordinaryguy]

Beatle,
I think you could start a new thread and ask the questions you wish to ask to atheist/agnostics or other faiths.

I agree. All this foolishness about atheism being a religion is getting repetitive and tiresome. Please, BJ, take it elsewhere.

[retsoksirhc]

Really--if questioned why you believe in something so fantastical as a virgin giving birth to a kid who grew up, walked on water, changed water into wine, and died like a criminal--and that kid is a GOD? --would you be able to come up with anything other than faith that founds your beliefs in something so fantastical?

Very nice way of putting it. I might also like to add that a common response to this type of questioning is that 'The bible says so,' to which most Christians would expect atheists to be concrete evidence. If someone doesn't believe in the bible, it can hardly be offered as proof to them that something paranormal or supernatural has happened. I've read a good part of the bible, but I don't believe that what it says is true. I've also read Needful Things, by Stephen King, the Chronicles of Narnia by CS Lewis, A Wrinkle in Time by Madeline L'Engle, and seen a few Harry Potter movies, and I don't believe that they're true either.

[beatlejuice]

Like I said for someone who has probably not ever left the North American continent let alone the world to tell me "there is no god" sound absurd and ridiculous. I am not denying that you are an atheist by a dictionary definition, I am just saying to for you to make that statement, it is a belief that has no evidence to back it up because technically speaking, an atheist does not know for a fact that there is no god because he/she can not prove it. No one on this earth can say for a fact there is no god because you don't know that. So you can say till you are blue in the face that there is no god, which is fine, but that is what you choose to have faith in despite the fact that you can not prove it. That just means you refuse to acknowlege possible existence of anything that is beyond your scope of knowledge. And that is why I said athiests are closed minded, I wasn't trying to be rude but it is quite apparent and that is fine there is nothing wrong with it. That is what you have chosen to believe, But there is nothing scientific or logical about being an atheist. It is a BELIEF, a religious belief because it is not based on evidence or science. Atheist are zelous and "consciously devoted" to their beliefs(as you have all shown), congragating is not a qualification for it to be a religion. So the bottom line is, unless you all can give me hard evidence that there is no god, I will say you are Agnostic or part of the athiestic Religious movement which is based on the refusal to acknowlege the possible existence of anything beyong their individual scope of knowledge. So I am not going to split anymore hairs with you all, it is what it is. Peace, I'm out!

[NeedKarma]

Yea, I'm just going to put you on my Ignore list now.

[Synnen]

Omg... for YOU to throw "close-minded" out there is... well, the irony kills me.

To me, it is Christians like you that are close-minded. Your little brain just can't wrap around the idea that there is a difference in believing in something and having it be a religion, can it?

Let's make it nice and easy.

Christianity is a BELIEF.
Lutheranism is a RELIGION.

Believing in something doesn't make it a religion. I believe in gravity, Mars, government conspiracies, the Lady, the Lord, the Ancients, Karma and reincarnation. NONE of those is my religion, though parts of my religion are in those beliefs. Just because you believe something that has no evidence or scientific background doesn't make it a religion.

You can't prove there IS a god, either, Beatle. Proof or lack of it has really nothing to do with this conversation. Belief, however, does.

Open your mind--you might realize that people everywhere believe different things, and that

[jillianleab]

Like i said for someone who has probably not ever left the North American continent let alone the world to tell me "there is no god" sound absurd and ridiculous. I am not denying that you are an athiest by a dictionary defintion, i am just saying to for you to make that statement, it is a belief that has no evidence to back it up because technically speaking, an athiest does not know for a fact that there is no god because he/she can not prove it. No one on this earth can say for a fact there is no god because you dont know that. So you can say till you are blue in the face that there is no god, which is fine, but that is what you choose to have faith in despite the fact that you can not prove it. That just means you refuse to acknowlege possible existance of anything that is beyond your scope of knowlege. And that is why i said athiests are closed minded, i wasnt trying to be rude but it is quite apparent and that is fine there is nothing wrong with it. That is what you have chosen to believe, But there is nothing scientific or logical about being an athiest. It is a BELIEF, a religious belief because it is not based on evidence or science. Athiest are zelous and "consciously devoted" to their beliefs(as you have all shown), congragating is not a qualification for it to be a religion. So the bottom line is, unless you all can give me hard evidence that there is no god, i will say you are Agnostic or part of the athiestic Religious movement which is based on the refusal to acknowlege the possible existance of anything beyong their individual scope of knowlege. So i am not going to split anymore hairs with you all, it is what it is. Peace, im out!

For the last time:

"If my interlocutor desires to convince me that Jupiter has inhabitants, and that his description of them is accurate, it is for him to bring forward evidence in support of his contention. The burden of proof evidently lies on him; it is not for me to prove that no such beings exist before my non-belief is justified, but for him to prove that they do exist before my belief can be fairly claimed. Similarly, it is for the affirmer of God’s existence to bring evidence in support of his affirmation; the burden of proof lies on him."

— Annie Besant, Why I Do Not Believe in God (London, 1887)

The onus of proof is on you, not me.

[mountain_man]

For the last time:

"If my interlocutor desires to convince me that Jupiter has inhabitants, and that his description of them is accurate, it is for him to bring forward evidence in support of his contention. The burden of proof evidently lies on him; it is not for me to prove that no such beings exist before my non-belief is justified, but for him to prove that they do exist before my belief can be fairly claimed. Similarly, it is for the affirmer of God’s existence to bring evidence in support of his affirmation; the burden of proof lies on him."

— Annie Besant, Why I Do Not Believe in God (London, 1887)

The onus of proof is on you, not me.

I present to you that EVERYDAY there is eveidence that GOD exists and it comes in the form of medical miracles, birth of a baby, the sun and moon, the intricacies of a cell, etc
I could go on and on.

The question isn't if there is evidence of God but are you looking for it and/or are you blind to the reality of these supernatural occurrences?

[retsoksirhc]

For anyone who argues that people who don't believe god exists without any proof MUST be atheist or agnostic, I have another word for you:

Skeptic.

You know, the people who don't believe things until they are shown to be true? It's called skepticism, and it's not a religion. It's a noun.

[Synnen]

Why must miracles of nature be proof of a god?

In the 18th century, the Bible was used as "proof" that the black man was inferior.

Weather phenomena such as hurricanes, droughts, floods, and storms have been used as "proof" that god is punishing someone.

An eclipse was once considered "proof" that god was unhappy or happy or whatever the followers wanted at that point.

I admit that there are many things I can't explain, and I'm willing to be open-minded about it--which means that it could be a natural phenomena (such as biology, for birth) or it could be more. I believe, personally, that the Lady touches all of us every day, even if you don't believe in her, especially in the form of Karma.

Those things you listed are YOUR proof... not absolute proof. For all you know, MY Goddess is in charge of all those things you listed, not your God. And as far as atheists are concerned... what nature does, what happens naturally in the world, even if we can't explain it, doesn't mean that there's a god causing it.

[mountain_man]

Why must miracles of nature be proof of a god?

in the 18th century, the Bible was used as "proof" that the black man was inferior.

Weather phenomena such as hurricanes, droughts, floods, and storms have been used as "proof" that god is punishing someone.

An eclipse was once considered "proof" that god was unhappy or happy or whatever the followers wanted at that point.

I admit that there are many things I can't explain, and I'm willing to be open-minded about it--which means that it could be a natural phenomena (such as biology, for birth) or it could be more. I believe, personally, that the Lady touches all of us every day, even if you don't believe in her, especially in the form of Karma.

Those things you listed are YOUR proof...not absolute proof. For all you know, MY Goddess is in charge of all those things you listed, not your God. And as far as atheists are concerned....what nature does, what happens naturally in the world, even if we can't explain it, doesn't mean that there's a god causing it.

Of course that is MY proof and you have the right and freedom to believe whatever you want to... remember we all have free will!

I know that the concept of God not being angry and out to get us is hard for many to believe but in MY opinion it is true... God is good, just, fair, loving...

[albear]

For anyone who argues that people who don't believe god exists without any proof MUST be atheist or agnostic, I have another word for you:

Skeptic.

You know, the people who don't believe things until they are shown to be true? It's called skepticism, and it's not a religion. It's a noun.

And...

[jillianleab]

I present to you that EVERYDAY there is eveidence that GOD exists and it comes in the form of medical miracles, birth of a baby, the sun and moon, the intricacies of a cell, etc
I could go on and on.

The question isn't if there is evidence of God but are you looking for it and/or are you blind to the reality of these supernatural occurances?

As Synnen pointed out, those things are "proof" to you, not to me. The things you say are "proof" can be explained in other ways, though, for the sake of this thread, I'm not interested in debating that. Think of it this way: I can say there is proof of evolution. The evidence presented to me causes me to believe in evolution. You (the collective you), deny evolution. I can say a million times, "but look at the proof!" and you don't care, it's not proof to you. Same thing.

Look, mountain_man, all other theists reading this thread - you have "found" god. You have your beliefs, and that's great, good for you. Really, I mean that, good for you. If the belief in god and the "proof" in his existence is shown to you, and that makes you happy, then that's wonderful. But why must you be so insistent everyone else see it the same way as you? The birth of a child is not a godly miracle to me, neither is the sunrise. They are things than happen in the natural world which can be otherwise explained. The only thing, and I mean ONLY thing that will turn me into a believer is if god himself/herself appears before me, says "Hey! I EXIST dangit!" and then is gone. Until that happens, I'm not going to believe, no matter how many babies are born.

And sorry, but the question IS if there is evidence for god - you believe in god because you have what you consider evidence, not "just because". I have seen no evidence, therefore, I don't believe.