[achampio21]

I agree with you NeedKarma...

Plants/grass/veggies/ etc all come from seeds. Those seeds come from their source at some point in it's phase. All of them require soil, water, and sunlight to grow and become what they become. That doesn't show anyone that a God exists unless you BELIEVE that a God put it all here.

Take a child from the depths of Africa that has never been taught about religion, and ask that child how did that flower get here, you know what that child's response will be?.

"I don't know" His/Her perception of how it got here is totally up to whoever decides to tell that child how it got here. And that child will BELIEVE whatever he/she is told because he/she will not know otherwise. But to assume that grass is proof of God is not ligit. Because in all truth you can't prove that it was. And you can't prove that God made anything.

How did you SassyT come to believe in God? Did you just wake up one day and tell yourself I bet God made everything, or where you raised in faith? And if you had NEVER been told about God do you really think you would have any idea at all about their being one?

[sassyT]

I agree with you NeedKarma...

Plants/grass/veggies/ etc all come from seeds. Those seeds come from their source at some point in it's phase. All of them require soil, water, and sunlight to grow and become what they become. That doesn't show anyone that a God exists unless you BELIEVE that a God put it all here.

Where did the seeds come from?

[achampio21]

You avoided my question, I will answer yours when you answer mine. Please.


Okay, I guess that means you aren't going to answer...

I BELIEVE God started it all. BUT.. those that don't BELIEVE in a god do not and therefore draw their own conclusions as to where the seeds come from.
If you are a biology major, you tell me where your professor says they come from. Because I KNOW they don't teach religion in school. Our government forbids it.

[Credendovidis]

How did you SassyT come to believe in God?

Hello Champ!
As it seems she refuses to answer that question, just let me answer it : most probably she was brainwashed early in life by her parents into believing in God. Yes : brainwashed. Though well intended and not intended to hurt anyone, it still was brainwashing. As you stated yourself : young children will believe anything their parents tell them. Only when children grow older, some of them start questioning what they were told by their parents, make up their own mind, and draw another conclusion.

Of course sassyT can correct me on the above, if she wants, and tell us all how otherwise she started believing in God. But I suggest it is unwise to hold your breath till that post appears on this board...

===

As to your last post : so you are a Deist ! At least you believe in a deity that used it's time to do something positive by creating the Universe. And followed that up with going on a long, very long holiday, unlike the claimed Christian God who followed that up with a lot of blood, death, rape, pain, and revenge as per the OT .
Good choice!

;)

·

[De Maria]

That is a non-answer : why don't you provide clear information on what, where, when? You know you can't , is it not?

I did.

Objective supporting evidence from your side has indeed never been forthcoming. Why otherwise are you hiding now behind claims that I lie, which - again - you can not back up? Just quote with what you seem to see as objective supporting evidence . Also please provide info on where and when that was posted.

I did. Several times.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Well, this is an erroneous conclusion (even though it *might* be right!).

Huh? How can you seem so sure its erroneous and then say it might be right?

What you are doing is making an argument from personal incredulity. In other words, just because YOU, De Maria, can't think of any other way for that blade of grass to hold such properties, you are going to plug in your own answer.

I reviewed the objective evidence and using my subjective reason, came to a conclusion.

This is NOT how science works!

Unfortunately, you are correct. It is how science is supposed to work. But frequently, scientists have subjective agendas which they confuse with objective evidence and then their conclusions turn out overly biased.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[NeedKarma]

Unfortunately, you are correct. It is how science is supposed to work. But frequently, scientists have subjective agendas which they confuse with objective evidence and then their conclusions turn out overly biased.

Ah yes, the worldwide scientific conspiracy rears its ugly head again.

[Credendovidis]

I did. I did. Several times.

Please state WHERE and WHEN you did that, so I can check that and react on it.

So where and when did you post Objective Supporting Evidence for the existence of the Christian God, and that God being the Creator ?

If you can not or will not specify that, I have to assume you never posted that OSE .

:rolleyes:

·

[De Maria]

I agree with you NeedKarma...

Plants/grass/veggies/ etc all come from seeds. Those seeds come from their source at some point in it's phase. All of them require soil, water, and sunlight to grow and become what they become. That doesn't show anyone that a God exists unless you BELIEVE that a God put it all here.

Take into account, your own experience. How did your children get into your womb and why do feel that you should be thankful for them?

To whom do you feel you should be thankful?

It's the same process, your reason tells you that someone had to have given them to you. It isn't faith, because, if I understood your witness correctly, you didn't believe in God before. So, if you didn't have faith, you didn't believe in God, yet you came to the realization that someone else existed to whom you should be grateful.

Take a child from the depths of Africa that has never been taught about religion, and ask that child how did that flower get here, you know what that child's response will be?.

"I don't know" His/Her perception of how it got here is totally up to whoever decides to tell that child how it got here. And that child will BELIEVE whatever he/she is told because he/she will not know otherwise.

That only works for the period in which the child is dependent on the parents. My own experience is that I was told there was a God and I believed. Then I made up my own mind that God did not exist. Then one day I realized that I had been wrong. From viewing the evidence of the conception and birth of my children and by looking at the wondrous design of nature, I realized that only a super intelligence many times more powerful and intelligent than human beings could have produced it.

But to assume that grass is proof of God is not ligit.

There is a difference between proof and evidence. Proof is a special kind of evidence which is indisputable. Obviously, I have not produced indisputable proof. I have provided the evidence which has led me and many others to conclude that God exists.

Because in all truth you can't prove that it was. And you can't prove that God made anything.

Please provide the quotation where I said that I could prove that God made anything.

In essence, what you have done is created a straw man. You have changed what I said in order that you could win sound as though your argument were superior.

So all you have to do is provide the quotation where I said I had provided "proof".

How did you SassyT come to believe in God? Did you just wake up one day and tell yourself I bet God made everything, or where you raised in faith? And if you had NEVER been told about God do you really think you would have any idea at all about their being one?

Personally, as I've said, I was told God existed. But I came to believe otherwise. Then one day, soon after the conception of my own child, I came to realize that I had nothing to do with that conception except to make whoopie. And how could such a marvelous thing come about without a wonderful intelligence, marvelous in Its own right, to guide the process?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Please state WHERE and WHEN you did that, so I can check that and react on it.

So where and when did you post Objective Supporting Evidence for the existence of the Christian God, and that God being the Creator ?

If you can not or will not specify that, I have to assume you never posted that OSE .

:rolleyes:

·

I did so on this thread. Several times. Just go back and check it.

At this point, you are obviously avoiding engaging in any real debate because as I've proved, you know nothing about what evidence is for, what objective evidence means, nor how objective and subjective matters relate to each other. In essence, you know nothing about this subject matter.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Ah yes, the worldwide scientific conspiracy rears its ugly head again.

Did I say it was a conspiracy? Who did so? When?

You might want to start reading what people actually say, rather than reading into their statements what you want them to say. Maybe then you'd have something to contribute.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[NeedKarma]

I quote your text in my reply, you must have missed it. Y'know, the part about scientists having agendas.
You sound like a mad fella. Calm down a little. Ask Jesus for some soothing help.

[Credendovidis]

How did your children get into your womb...

You really want someone to explain you the complete impregnation process?

... and why do feel that you should be thankful for them?

She may have had a good time during that process, and the result may have been overwhelming positive.

To whom do you feel you should be thankful?

Her husband or partner ?

I have provided the evidence which has led me and many others to conclude that God exists.

Conclude ? That is called Subjective Supported Evidence... Not Objective Supported Evidence

... And how could such a marvelous thing come about without a wonderful intelligence, marvelous in Its own right, to guide the process?

Why not? It seems to me that all plants and all life forms can do without that intervention. So why would humanity be the only exception to that ?
And why would that "intelligence" be required at all ? (Of course you may always BELIEVE that ! )

:rolleyes:

·

[sassyT]

Hello Champ!
As it seems she refuses to answer that question, just let me answer it : most probably she was brainwashed early in life by her parents into believing in God. Yes : brainwashed. Though well intended and not intended to hurt anyone, it still was brainwashing. As you stated yourself : young children will believe anything their parents tell them. Only when children grow older, some of them start questioning what they were told by their parents, make up their own mind, and draw another conclusion

Lol... yeah brainwashed like how you have been brainwashed into believing a Big bang is what created universe and that a mythical one cell creature is you ancestor.. . :rolleyes:

Of course sassyT can correct me on the above, if she wants, and tell us all how otherwise she started believing in God. But I suggest it is unwise to hold your breath till that post appears on this board...

Lol Don't hold your breath (as old as you are.. you might pass out... kidding :)) because I am just going to leave you with your BELIEFS on how I came to believe in God. I know telling you won't change your beliefs anyway because, as we have all observed, you seem to struggle with reality. :rolleyes:

[Credendovidis]

...brainwashed like how you have been brainwashed into believing a Big bang is what created universe and that a mythical one cell creature is you ancestor.

Be glad I am around here, sassyT, as I seem to cause you lot's of lol and other pleasures. I hope it feels for you just as good as it does to me ! :D

Once more : I do not BELIEVE in the Big Bang, nor in Evolution. I never stated that, and have been telling you ever since you started posting that "steer waste". That you never-the-less keep restating that confirms my opinion of you...

I accept the scientific support for both theories, as they are properly supported, though not for the full 100%. But than : no religious claims have more than ZERO percent scientific support, so both theories seem to be superior on OSE to religious claims !

i am just going to leave you with your BELIEFS on how i came to believe in God.

I am not really interested in what and why you believe anyway. What you BELIEVE is up to you. It has no bearing on anyone else.

... you seem to struggle with reality.

Not correct. I have a perfect sense of what is reality and what is not. Something you seem to miss entirely. Even when we discuss obtained degrees!!

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

[WVHiflyer]

[QUOTE=inthebox... What is NOT science is trying to fit the complexity of a single cell into the theory of evolution."[/QUOTE]

That's EXACTLY what science is. Trying to find out how the natural world works.


[QUOTE=intheboxThat is not scientific though many scientists and evolutionists believe it is the best theory out there."[/QUOTE]

Wrong. MOST scientists don't believe it's the best explanation, they KNOW it.

[WVHiflyer]

WVH please dont just make empty claims. If you believe evolution is truth.. good for you but the reality is there is no evidence macro evolution. Micro evolution is an irrefutable fact and Darwinists like yourself think you can use evidence for Micro evolution as evidence for Macro. No, sorry it doesnt work that way. If you want to convince me that The theory of Macro evolution is truth then please provide irrefutable evidence that a once cell creature known as an ameoba is the ancestor of all living things, flowers, birds, pigs humans etc. I would also like to see irrefutable evidence that a warm promodial soup existed of which this mythical one cell creature crawled out of. I would also like you to prove that random mutations can create "new" information in DNA.

P.S
Plse do not just copy and past some blurb to got online like you have been doing.

Since I'm not the one who has done the science, I can only direct you to info where descriptions of the science (proof) can be found. I'm just trying to fill in the gaps in your supposed 'science' education. But you apparently refuse to actually read the scientific reports on the evidence. Whales, for instance, are clearly shown in the fossil record to have evolved. There are clear 'steps' in changes between land and water habitation, how the nasal passages changed, etc. This could easily be found in any library (except, I guess, at that school you attend which you keep secret).

I also gave you evidence of "'new' information in DNA" being given since bacteria do it all the time. Read that post again. Or does science actually bore you and so prevent you from finishing even a post here (much less a whole article or even the book I suggested).



It isn't faith that makes good science Mr. Clatu, it's curiosity. --The Day the Earth Stood Still

[WVHiflyer]

lolDont hold your breath (as old as you are..you might pass out...kidding :)) because i am just going to leave you with your BELIEFS on how i came to believe in God. I know telling you wont change your beliefs anyway because, as we have all observed, you seem to struggle with reality. :rolleyes:

Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense.

--Voltaire, 1764

Irrationally held truths may be more harmful than reasoned errors. --Thomas Huxley



-

[achampio21]

Take into account, your own experience. How did your children get into your womb and why do feel that you should be thankful for them?

To whom do you feel you should be thankful?

1.) Its the same process, your reason tells you that someone had to have given them to you. It isn't faith, because, if I understood your witness correctly, you didn't believe in God before. So, if you didn't have faith, you didn't believe in God, yet you came to the realization that someone else existed to whom you should be grateful.



2.) That only works for the period in which the child is dependent on the parents. My own experience is that I was told there was a God and I believed. Then I made up my own mind that God did not exist. Then one day I realized that I had been wrong. From viewing the evidence of the conception and birth of my children and by looking at the wondrous design of nature, I realized that only a super intelligence many times more powerful and intelligent than human beings could have produced it.



3.) There is a difference between proof and evidence. Proof is a special kind of evidence which is indisputable. Obviously, I have not produced indisputable proof. I have provided the evidence which has led me and many others to conclude that God exists.



4.) Please provide the quotation where I said that I could prove that God made anything.

5.) In essence, what you have done is created a straw man. You have changed what I said in order that you could win sound as though your argument were superior.

6.) So all you have to do is provide the quotation where I said I had provided "proof".



7.) Personally, as I've said, I was told God existed. But I came to believe otherwise. Then one day, soon after the conception of my own child, I came to realize that I had nothing to do with that conception except to make whoopie. And how could such a marvelous thing come about without a wonderful intelligence, marvelous in Its own right, to guide the process?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Okay, I am thouroghly confused. Either you and SassyT are the same person or you are answering her questions for her. But either way it goes...

1.) My children got into my womb by the "fact" that I produced an egg and my husbands sperm fertilized it and then the embryo's grew into babies and then boom I gave birth. But, yes I believe God gave me and my husband that power. Or at least gave the first man and woman on earth that power and it was passed on to him and I. But non-believers do not believe that.


2.) I was using the same analogy that SassyT used earlier in this thread. I figured she would see both of my points.

3.) I was merely referring "you" to anyone not a specific person. And that was a general statement.

4.) Never said YOU specifically said anything.

5.)?? :confused:?? Besides, I'm allergic to straw.

6.) Never said YOU specifically said anything.

7.) Some people don't believe that anything gave them that power. That's their choice.

And just for the record. I went to church every Sunday and both major holiday's my WHOLE life. I was moved around A LOT because my wonderful daddy didn't want to pay child support to his 2 ex-wives for the 5 other kids before me that he made (or I guess God made, so why would he pay support?? Anyway) and I went to just about every type of church you can name. Baptist, Southern babtist, Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbytarian, etc.. So I was exposed to many, many types of religion. I chose on my own which to believe in and which not too. I sat in church pew after church pew right in between my birth mother and birth father and listened to them lie straight faced to many many preachers and I was sick. I listened to many many preachers ask for money at the beginning of service and again at the end of service and then watched that same preacher drive off in a Mercades or Lexus to his $200,000 house. While I left with satan and her husband in our primered chevy S10 to our $80,000 house to eat ramen noodles for dinner.

I went a VERY LONG time questioning God and angry about all of the horrible things that happened to me in my life. I couldn't understand what I had done to deserve all of the crap that had happened to me. I shouldn't have to blame myself for sins I really don't know that I committed to explain the bad things in my life. And I couldn't believe that a God as all powerful and all-knowing as the Christian God would let all of the horrible things that are happening happen simply because some people don't believe in Him.

BUT>>> I have quit questioning. Because wondering why was driving me freakin crazy. I just live day to day and recognize that if I believe in a God that makes this life actually worth living. Because if I didn't believe that I will get to walk on streets of gold, never be hungry and walk around naked and happy as a jaybird this life would surely make me do REALLY bad things. Because I can't imagine thinking everyday that when I die that's it. If that is the case then what happens here on earth doesn't ultimately matter. And your choices only decide what happens here. If you do bad things and get caught, you go to jail. If you don't mind jail then the sky is the limit for you. So in all truth and honesty, I believe in God for my own sanity and for other people's safety :p. Because if I didn't, I would have surely snapped a long time ago and done things that wouldn't have been good.

[achampio21]

WVHiflyer~

I really like your proverb in your signature. It is very fitting and makes a lot of sense.

Besides I relate to "ain't" more than you could possibly know :D :p :D





I have a quote to add though...



"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
-- Galileo Galilei