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jlisenbe · Jun 15, 2020, 09:51 AM

Which one is that?

The one that states what marriage IS, and right from the mouth of Jesus. "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." It is excluded by reason of definition.

Wondergirl · Jun 15, 2020, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The one that states what marriage IS, and right from the mouth of Jesus. "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." It is excluded by reason of definition.

Which means what?

From the mouth of Jesus? My Bible says it's from the quill of St. Paul.

P.S. That isn't a commandment nor a command.

jlisenbe · Jun 15, 2020, 09:58 AM

Gay marriage is not acceptable. Kind of simple, isn't it? It's similar to the Constitution saying the pres must be a natural born citizen. That excludes, by reason of definition, everyone who is NOT a natural born citizen, even though it never actually states that. So when Jesus states that a MAN and his WIFE will become one flesh, then two men or two women are excluded. Or at least it's true for those who accept what Jesus said. I realize that might leave you out.

talaniman · Jun 15, 2020, 10:04 AM

Are NON-Christians/NON-Muslims/or NON-Jews bound by the laws of religion? By the way SCOTUS just affirmed you cannot fire a gay person or transgender based sexual identity.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/su...?ocid=msedgntp

Not only can gay people get married but hold a job too.

Wondergirl · Jun 15, 2020, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Gay marriage is not acceptable.

Not true. Stop being so legalistic! Love one another as you love yourself.

I have friends and even a few extended family members who are in the LGBTQ community. I have never met more loving and giving people. They were raised Christian and have found church homes where cis members welcome them with open arms.

tomder55 · Jun 15, 2020, 10:37 AM

Are NON-Christians/NON-Muslims/or NON-Jews bound by the laws of religion? By the way SCOTUS just affirmed you cannot fire a gay person or transgender based sexual identity.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/su...?ocid=msedgntp

Not only can gay people get married but hold a job too.

Remember when the concern was that SCOTUS was becoming too conservative ? The vote was 6-3 with Roberts and Gorsuch joining the majority AND Gorsuch WROTE the majority opinion .

talaniman · Jun 15, 2020, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

Remember when the concern was that SCOTUS was becoming too conservative ? The vote was 6-3 with Roberts and Gorsuch joining the majority AND Gorsuch WROTE the majority opinion .

Gorsuch is a textualist. My only knock was the dirty deal that got him appointed. The 3 dissenters weren't happy, accusing the others of writing legislation.

tomder55 · Jun 15, 2020, 10:58 AM

I have not had time to read the opinions in the case yet . From what I gather ,Gorsuch was showing fealty to the written law which in itself is allegedly based on 14th Amendment rights . If he was truly being a textualist he would not adhere to the very broad interpretation of the 14th . Not only that ;it is a fact that not all law as written is constitutional . To say ,as I think he did ;that he is interpreting the law as written ,then he is not understanding his role in SCOTUS . It is not good enough to say that his decision is based on the law as written . He has to also determine if the law as written is itself constitutional . To me what he has decided is that the 14th supersedes the 1st amendment free exercise clause (which in many cases has been tossed into the trash heap by the judiciary ) .

talaniman · Jun 15, 2020, 11:03 AM

He made his ruling on the civil rights law of 1964 which is about discrimination on the basis of race, creed, color or sex from my understanding of the reporting.

jlisenbe · Jun 15, 2020, 11:41 AM

Are NON-Christians/NON-Muslims/or NON-Jews bound by the laws of religion? By the way SCOTUS just affirmed you cannot fire a gay person or transgender based sexual identity.

We are talking about God's laws. Is everyone bound by God's laws? You better believe it. God will judge everyone by His laws. Are they bound by God's laws by the federal government? No.

But what do you think about what Jesus said? I assume you reject it?

Athos · Jun 15, 2020, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

the values put forward in the Ten Commandments form a moral code that we can teach our children. It can certainly be done without promoting any specific religion.

Have you actually read the 10 Commandments?

Where is the morality for a Hindu who is told the Hebrew God is real and the Hindu god is false? For a Christian who is told the Hebrew god is real and Christ as God is false? For Islam, who is told the Hebrew God is real and Allah is false? And so on for all the other Gods believed in by various religions.

Where is the morality in a God who is so jealous (which he admits) that he forbids images other than himself be made?

Where is the morality in a God who demands he be worshiped one day a week?

Such a god is more like Narcissus than Narcissus.

Most of the rest of the commandments are simply an injunction against crime. Hardly original, and clearly the mark of the priestly class.

talaniman · Jun 15, 2020, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

We are talking about God's laws. Is everyone bound by God's laws? You better believe it. God will judge everyone by His laws. Are they bound by God's laws by the federal government? No.

But what do you think about what Jesus said? I assume you reject it?

I'll face my maker and be judged, but as I walk this Earth, no human will tell me about Gods law or how to observe it, or come between me and the God I understand and have a personal relationship with. 

Sorry I don't put that much faith into what an ancient man says that Jesus said.

jlisenbe · Jun 15, 2020, 12:05 PM

Have you actually read the 10 Commandments?

Dozens of times.

Where is the morality for a Hindu who is told the Hebrew God is real and the Hindu god is false? For a Christian who is told the Hebrew god is real and Christ as God is false? For Islam, who is told the Hebrew God is real and Allah is false? And so on for all the other Gods believed in by various religions.

There is reality, and since there is, then your pleas are ridiculous.

Where is the morality in a God who is so jealous (which he admits) that he forbids images other than himself be made?

You need to read the Commandments. He does not allow images to be made of Himself.

Where is the morality in a God who demands he be worshiped one day a week?

One day a week? Try seven days a week, and as you will find out someday, every bit worthy of it. Besides, the Sabbath was for rest. There is no mention of worship.

Such a god is more like Narcissus than Narcissus.

Except, of course, that Narcissus was legendary and certainly not the God of the entire universe. But worship Narcissus if you want to. Your choice.

Most of the rest of the commandments are simply an injunction against crime. Hardly original, and clearly the mark of the priestly class.

Which is why we should post them in the schools.

Athos · Jun 15, 2020, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

There is reality, and since there is, then your pleas are ridiculous.

What pleas? I made no pleas. Oh, you mean statements of fact.

You are comparing your God to reality, implying the others are false. Which is not surprising because that's exactly what the first commandment says. But the issue is how do you think members of other religions will take to that? Not well, as you know.

You need to read the Commandments. He does not allow images to be made of Himself.

I guess you need to read them, too.

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God."

One day a week? Try seven days a week,

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." Another memory jogger for you.

Which is why we should post them in the schools.

Which is why they're completely unnecessary. Other rules and guidelines would be enormously more effective - one specific to the times. And they would not be offensive to people who do not believe the way you do who wants to force the Commandments on others against their will..

jlisenbe · Jun 15, 2020, 12:41 PM

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God." Exactly. No images...period. That is why, in the OT and NT, you do not find mention made of images of God.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." Another memory jogger for you.

Keep it holy does not equate to "worship", but I do thank you for jogging my memory...in whatever fashion you think you did.

Which is why they're completely unnecessary. Other rules and guidelines would be enormously more effective - one specific to the times. And they would not be offensive to people who do not believe the way you do who wants to force the Commandments on others against their will..

There is something about knowing that the commandment comes from God that makes it more effective.

Athos · Jun 15, 2020, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

There is something about knowing that the commandment comes from God that makes it more effective.

That is not the belief of the great majority of people on this planet. Ergo, the commandment is LESS effective.

jlisenbe · Jun 15, 2020, 12:52 PM

The question is the beliefs of the people of the U.S., not the people on the planet. And as I showed earlier, the great majority of our people support the displaying of the 10 Commandments.

talaniman · Jun 15, 2020, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

There is something about knowing that the commandment comes from God that makes it
more effective.

So sayeth a very ancient man.

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The question is the beliefs of the people of the U.S., not the people on the planet. And as I showed earlier, the great majority of our people support the displaying of the 10 Commandments.

Obviously not enough to get it done everywhere.

Athos · Jun 15, 2020, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The question is the beliefs of the people of the U.S., not the people on the planet

True, but the point was many schoolchildren these days are the children of those who have come from areas on the planet that do not believe the way you do. I assumed that was obvious. I forgot you're a picker of nits.

And as I showed earlier, the great majority of our people support the displaying of the 10 Commandments.

"Our" people? Interesting choice of words.

Your position is questionable at best, but beside the point. The First Amendment prohibits the establishment of religion and displaying the 10 Commandments would violate that principle.

But - just for argument sake, (I know this has been asked before), would you allow a similar statement of "morals" from another religion to be publicly displayed?

tomder55 · Jun 15, 2020, 01:17 PM

He made his ruling on the civil rights law of 1964 which is about discrimination on the basis of race, creed, color or sex from my understanding of the reporting.

which in turn has it's origin on a very broad reading of the 14th amendment . A textualist would not find the rational in the amendment to justify the law as being interpreted by the court (the ruling itself a broad interpretation of the law) What we have here really is activism masked as textualism. Think about it . I hire people . I never ask their sexual preferences . Do I now have to add it to my questionnaire to protect my company ? And if I fire someone and they suddenly declare they are of this special protected group, will the company face a law suit ?