[tomder55]

Putin does what is politically expedient for Putin, right now he is getting kudos in Russia for doing what he is doing, restoring former glory

you are nuts if you think invading Ukraine is expedient for Putin . Yes he has to deal with hardliners in the Kremlin ,but it is not in Russia's interest to get into a fight in Ukraine ;especially with the threat of NATO intervention. However it is NOT in Russia's interest to have NATO expand to Russia's borders.

[paraclete]

I don't see it makes any difference Tom except to a paranoid Russian

[paraclete]

Ukraine 'destroyed' Russian military vehicles after border incursion | News.com.au

It is reported that Russian military vehicles have been destroyed in southern Ukraine, the ruse of humanitarian aid is shown for what it is

[earl237]

Apparently Putin's approval rating is in the 80s, which is far better than any Western leader, but since the government has a lot of control over the media, and elections are a sham, I wonder if his popularity is really that high among average people. Reminds me of that old joke about the annual Kremlin Correspondents' Association Dinner where the media gather to laugh at Putin's jokes or else.

[paraclete]

Earl we are going down a road here we have seen before. Despotism is nasty, and Putin is nasty, just a bad joke. The Russian state went from communist totalitarianism to oligarcyic totitarianism and now twenty years later it is looking to recover past glories on the back of economic domination of Europe. The Russians want back their lost empire and the Ukraine was part of the Russian empire for a long time. They think Putin is strong enough to succeed so they applaud him, one day he will become as brutal as Stalin. Certain states have escaped the Russian grip, but has it done them any good? Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, just economic backwaters, but the Ukraine is something else

[paraclete]

Ukraine: Russian tank column enters southeast - Europe news

Apparently a Russian armoured column has moved into the Ukraine. We can expect various excuses for this, the need to secure the route to Crimea, The support of the Russian population in the face of Ukrainian successes, and the usual excuses for territorial grabs, as well as diversion to draw Ukrainian forces but it is dangerous brinkmanship

[paraclete]

Somewhat reminiscent of its adventurism in Afghanistan, Russia has deployed forces in the Ukraine even as Putin holds talks with the Ukrainian president. He has made good on his threat to prevent Ukraine signing a agreement with the EU

Ukraine: 'Convoy of Russian tanks, weaponry rolling in through southeast'

Ok so it's time to man up and take sides in defending the Ukraine

[tomder55]

it's all part of the negotiations. I wonder what Ukraine will do when Russia cuts off their energy supply ? The NATO nations should note that winter comes early there . Why do you think Germany is so desperate to negotiate a deal when the rest of the NATO minister bluster ? Petro Poroshenko is a creation of Washington ;but I have no desire to commit US assets defending him. This clown who dissolved Parliament and is calling for general elections as he shells half his population does not deserve our support.

[paraclete]

So you would rather support Putin and gift the Ukraine to him? What's next; Poland? Moldova? Romania? why stop there, Germany is looking pretty good. The real question is why he would want any of it when he has the economic might to grab them all by the throat and of course you along with them. I see that famous US back seat is back in use

[talaniman]

Vlad doesn't have a leg to stand on in any negotiation unless he actually has something under his control in the Ukraine. Quiet as it's kept, the rebels have been slowly getting their butts kicked by the regular army.

[paraclete]

And Putin intends to stop that happening

[tomder55]

So you would rather support Putin and gift the Ukraine to him? What's next; Poland? Moldova? Romania? why stop there, Germany is looking pretty good. The real question is why he would want any of it when he has the economic might to grab them all by the throat and of course you along with them. I see that famous US back seat is back in use

Look at it from the Russian perspective . Instead of forging a real peace after the cold war ,NATO has been on a steady march right up to Russia's borders . I don't condone his actions in Ukraine ;nor earlier in Georgia. Neither did I condone the West carving out a piece of Serbia when the Russians did not have the power to defend their ally .
Make no mistake . It's NATO's advance that is causing the greatest instability .
It's a shame ,had the Clintonistas supported the democratic government in Russia when the Soviet Union fell ,we might never had to deal with the likes of Putin.

[talaniman]

That's speculation Tom, and the NATO scare is pure strawman argument to justify destabilizing, divide and reconquer old territory for the economic interests of the Russian elites. We do agree on the present invasion to bolster the separatist rebels is a negotiation tool to leverage a better deal.

[tomder55]

Of course it's speculation . All what if scenarios are .

As far as NATO .... Look back at history ..2 pretty significant invasions of Russia from the West went right through Ukraine.

[paraclete]

Stop speculating Tom and stick with the facts, NATO didn't start this and nations wanted the NATO umbrella because most of the significant invasions of Europe in history came out of the east, including the Russians in 1945. You speak like a Russian sympathiser, Mccarthy would have had fun with your remarks, I bet there is a red under your bed. The Ukraine wants to remain free and we should help them, even if it means confronting Russia militarily

[tomder55]

I didn't hear you calling for intervention when Russia was carving pieces of Georgia ( Abkhazia and South Ossetia) Actually it is NATO that has been pushing for Eastern European memberships.NATO added 12 Eastern European countries from 1999 to 2009.Would the US have tolerated something simular in the Western hemisphere? The US almost went to war with Russia 1963 because of Russian expansion up to our border in one country . Do you not see the comparison ? Ukraine is essential in Moscow’s view to its national security ;and based on it's history ,it's existance.

Look at the facts .It was the US that backed the overthrow of the democratically elected gvt of Viktor Yanukovych in Kiev in Feb. Russia wanted a negotiated settlement and new elections. When the EU became concerned that our stand could lead to a civil war , assistant secretary of State for European and Eurasian affairs, Victoria Nuland said "F the EU" (great diplomatic lingo). When new elections were hastily held ,most of Eastern Ukraine was disenfranchise . That is why the civil war there began.
And how has Kiev conducted this war ? They have indescriminantly shelling urban population centers in Donetsk.We almost bombed Assad in Syria over the same pretext. The real truth is that Ukraine is 2 nations in one artifical border. The people of the west want integration into the EU .The people in the east are largely ethnic Russians .They had a referendum in Crimea .97% chose to leave Ukraine .The referendum was monitored by many countries, including pro-western organisations and the result still turned out in Russia's favour.
Why not have another referendum like it in Donetsk ? You know why not . All the pretext of supporting the Kiev government's war would disappear.

[talaniman]

A weak central government that cannot take care of it's own people is subject to regional and local factions. The argument of states rights, or regional autonomy, is an old one, that has divided nations, and redrawn maps for centuries.

Vlad stirs the pot well in dividing the Ukraine. Restoration of Russian domination has always been his goal.

[tomder55]

The argument of states rights, or regional autonomy, is an old one, that has divided nations, and redrawn maps for centuries.

In Great Britian there is about to be a referendum for Scottish autonomy . That is the preferred way of dealing with it rather than shelling Glasgow into rubble .

[talaniman]

Agreed!

[paraclete]

You draw a long bow here, the Ukraine held elections and they didn't favour Russia, so Russia fermented discontent. How about we stir up discontent in California, how long before you would move the army in? What if Mexico invaded to get back its lost territory. Would you stand idly by?