[speechlesstx]

Again, no one is clamoring for a "severe conservative" solution to the public school failure, but when we try to put our money where our mouth is the NEA and their "me first" entrenched unionized teachers cry foul. But I already said that.

You want compromise let's compromise, leave the ideology (and Planned Parenthood) out of our textbooks and our classrooms and teach the kids math, science, reading and writing and eliminate this revisionist leftist history. Stick to the facts - you say you like facts but I don't see any evidence of that - and hold children and the teachers to a higher standard.

[excon]

and eliminate this revisionist leftist history. Stick to the facts

Hello again, Steve:

Like these "facts"?? You guys are silly.

excon

[tomder55]

NCLB was an attempt at that compromise stuff Tal talks about . The President pretty much adopted a Kennedy intiative . Now they pin it on Bush when it inevidibly fails ;and say the reason it doesn't work is because there was not enough money thrown into the plan. You can recite their meme in your sleep. It's so predictable; so droll.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

Like these "facts"??? You guys are silly.

excon

Did I say replace a leftist world view with a conservative world view? No I did not.

[TUT317]

Hello again, Steve:

Like these "facts"??? You guys are silly.

excon

One of the problems is that it is impossible to understand your own history without understanding the history of Europe first. The whole idea of the Founding Fathers was to break away from a dominant clergy.

One needs to know the reason for the Enlightenment and how people such as Locke and Montesquieu fit into the picture. Once this is done then we can begin to understand the history.

Tut

[talaniman]

Like most great ideas, it sounds good on paper, but the implementation is a beeyatch. NCLB was a disaster because like The voter ID law, it was a rushed job that was poorly planned.

We lack balance and flexibility, because that child who isn't a math major, may be excellent in other areas. NCLB destroyed the parts of the school curriculum that were not about math and science, and lead to many cover ups and exploitations to make the numbers look right.

[tomder55]

The whole idea of the Founding Fathers was to break away from a dominant clergy.

While it's true that many of the original settlers of the colonies fled religious oppression ;it is not true that the founders of the nation were .The King of England had become the oppressor ;the Parliament of England had become the oppressor. You won't find a word in the gripes and grieviences documented in the Declaration of Independence that makes the claim that the Church of England was being oppressive.

The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States

[speechlesstx]

Like most great ideas, it sounds good on paper, but the implementation is a beeyatch. NCLB was a disaster because like The voter ID law, it was a rushed job that was poorly planned.

We lack balance and flexibility, because that child who isn't a math major, may be excellent in other areas. NCLB destroyed the parts of the school curriculum that were not about math and science, and lead to many cover ups and exploitations to make the numbers look right.

So I offer compromise but it's too difficult? Why ask then?

[TUT317]

While it's true that many of the original settlers of the colonies fled religious oppression ;it is not true that the founders of the nation were .The King of England had become the oppressor ;the Parliament of England had become the oppressor. You won't find a word in the gripes and grieviences documented in the Declaration of Independence that makes the claim that the Church of England was being oppressive.

Hi Tom,

This is correct, but I should expand on my point. My reference to, The Enlightenment was made in light of Ex's reference the curriculum changes. Specifically in relation to the idea that the founders were guided by Christian principles.

The answer is they were not. In fact the opposite is the case. They deliberately set out to make sure that government was based solely on the principles of human reason. That was the whole idea.

No amount of quality teaching can overcome a flawed curriculum. The same type of argument also applies to the reference on evolutionary theory. How can you teach what isn't the case when you don't know what is the case?

[tomder55]

Well Tut ,I could give you many founders quotes that dispute that narrative. Suffice it to say that they all had their vision of what a civil and moral society should resemble. The common purpose was first to address their grieviences against the crown;and later to create a functioning Republic philosophically guided by many of the Enlightenment thoughts.(... although not exclusively... don't forget ,much of the disaster that was the French Revolution was also founded on Enlightenment principles sans religious foundation)
So I won't go out on a limb and say that was the only guiding principles ;and it is a mistake for school systems to exclude any of the founding principles from the curriculum .

[TUT317]

Well Tut ,I could give you many founders quotes that dispute that narrative.

Please do. I would be most interested.

Suffice it to say that they all had their vision of what a civil and moral society should resemble. The common purpose was first to address their grieviences against the crown;and later to create a functioning Republic philosophically guided by many of the Enlightenment thoughts.(...although not exclusively ...don't forget ,much of the disaster that was the French Revolution was also founded on Enlightenment principles sans religious foundation)

While there are many similarities there we as many differences so it is not a valid comparison. Are you saying the French Revolution had its basis in some type of religious movement?

So I won't go out on a limb and say that was the only guiding principles ;and it is a mistake for school systems to exclude any of the founding principles from the curriculum .

So you are saying there are more? What exactly are these 'mores' that need to be included? From a historical and philosophical point of view I mean.


Tut

[tomder55]

Are you saying the French Revolution had its basis in some type of religious movement?

No the contrary... I think one of it's fatal flaws was that it was anti-religion. Actually it was viciously hostile to religion to the extreme point that they took 16 cloistered nuns and killed them with the guillotine for the henious crime of praying .

So you are saying there are more? What exactly are these 'mores' that need to be included? From a historical and philosophical point of view I mean.

I mean there are Christian principles to the founding that should also be taught from a historical perspective .

[TUT317]

No the contrary ... I think one of it's fatal flaws was that it was anti-religion. Actually it was viciously hostile to religion to the extreme point that they took 16 cloistered nuns and killed them with the guillotine for the henious crime of praying .

I mean there are Christian principles to the founding that should also be taught from a historical perspective .

Hi again Tom,

Perhaps your are right it may have well been a fatal flaw with the French Revolution but we'll never know.

As far as the answer to my questions; the only thing you have come up with so far is the claim that you find it incredulous that there cannot be any religious principles tied up with history and philosophy of the founding. Therefore, on that basis there must be some.

This is exactly the same error that we find in the link Ex provided.

Tut

[tomder55]

Originally Posted by tomder55
Well Tut ,I could give you many founders quotes that dispute that narrative.

Please do. I would be most interested

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? Thomas Jefferson (1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.)

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” James Madison [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” Benjamin Franklin ( Constitutional Convention of 1787)

"I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature."John Adams (letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports….Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”
George Washington(Farewell Address 1796)

[tomder55]

Here's more :

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams

“The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.” Benjamin Rush (signer of Declaration of Independence)

"Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville(Democracy in America)

[TUT317]

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? Thomas Jefferson (1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.)

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” James Madison [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” Benjamin Franklin ( Constitutional Convention of 1787)

"I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature."John Adams (letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports….Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”
George Washington(Farewell Address 1796)

Ok. Thanks for that. Now we have something to work with.

The next question I would ask is exactly this." How are all of the above accounts transferred into the U.S Constitution?" In other words, what references can you provide in the Constitution that make reference to God; directly or indirectly.

Tut

[tomder55]

There is none... but the Declaration of Independence begins and ends with one.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States

I did not imply that they were setting up a theocracy . I'm just saying that they were not guided exclusively by Enlightenment thought; that the nation they were founding also had a firm foundation in Christian principles ;and that that should not be purged from the curriculum

[TUT317]

There is none ... but the Declaration of Independence begins and ends with one.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States

I did not imply that they were setting up a theocracy . I'm just saying that they were not guided exclusively by Enlightenment thought; that the nation they were founding also had a firm foundation in Christian principles ;and that that should not be purged from the curriculum

Ok, now we are getting somewhere.

It is,"the firm foundation" bit I am disputing. If by this you mean that the majority of the founders were Christian then I agree- most would agree. However, that does not give us licence to translate that into the document itself as having a firm basis in Christianity. You see the difference?

Tut

[tomder55]

Yes ,but the founding of the nation was more than the Constitution. It was also the values of the men behind it. If you are telling me that they valued the Enlightenment thinkers and in some cases were Enlightenment philosophers themselves ,I agree. But that was not the sole philosophical foundation. In fact ;neither would be the Enlightenment AND Christianity. They in fact borrowed from the native confederacies of the time too in constructing the government. ALL should be taught and NONE excluded from the education of the children. .

[excon]

You can't blame those numbers on the right.

Hello again, Steve:

Oh, no??

excon