[backpack2389]

Additionally, I find my bf's reaction to the suggestion of me watching porn interesting. It makes me wonder if it didn't cause him to feel the feelings that I have been struggling with. Is he worried or angered by the fact that I might think about another man sexually? Is he upset by the idea of me getting off to watching another man? About me seeing another man and having vivid sexual interaction with that man to the point of orgasm?

It also caused me to wonder if his reaction wasn't confirmation of my fears. That his porn use is more than just a physical release but something he feels is very close to an actual sexual encounter. That he is thinking about these women and the things he sees in porn when he's with me. I feel like you can't watch porn four times a week to a couple times a day and not have those thoughts, images in your mind when you're actually having sex. His reaction was so strong and extreme that I can't help but feel all of these things are true. He expects me to share him sexually and just be accepting that he won't change, but he is furious when he thinks about accepting the same behaviors in me.

[talaniman]

Maybe you have come to one of those obstacles for happiness in your relationship. Give much thought to words and actions to resolve this as conflict resolution requires patience and persistent. And the wisdom to know when to back off and when to push.

I don't like his reaction, but to deal with it requires understanding of why he feels as he does, so put aside the feelings and research and ask him directly why he reacted so strongly and build from there. He must also know you didn't like his reaction in a non threatening way.

"Your reaction just confused me and made me feel bad". Or something to that effect. The most dangerous thing that happens is assuming what goes on in your partners head. Or act on feelings with no facts, and he is the only one that can supply them.

[backpack2389]

I have tried to be understanding, nonthreatening and unassuming. And this approach might work if he actually were willing to talk but he's not, at least regarding this topic. Honestly, anytime I have ever brought it up, he has only been angry with me.

[mmresd]

My perspective...

You need to get over it. There is nothing wrong with a guy watching porn, regardless of what you may think, it is normal to have those urges. I do agree with you in that replacing you with it is very wrong, and that part should be worked out. However, he is not going to stop, by pushing him away from it you will only make him lie to you, he has done it once already, and he will continue to do so for as long as you push him. His privacy is his own, you have let him know how you feel about it, and expect an unrealistic outcome out of this situation. You have made more damage by snooping around, and yet continue to look around. Learn to respect him, before you expect him to respect how you are feeling. If for any reason you are not able to overcome this obstacle, you can always find someone else, someone who doesn't watch porn. After all, you know your boyfriend fairly well if you are discussing marriage, and him watching porn makes him unsuitable for you? He has been doing it all along, it doesn't change anything because we normally start watching it before we met you and will continue to do so regardless of whether you decide to stay or leave. Focus on more important areas of your relationship, maybe integrate it into your sex life so that both of you are completely turned on when the magic happens. Why should we have to pay for a female's closed-minded attitude towards porn?

Remember that when you try to talk to him, actually TALK to him, to a lot of females when emotions are running around, what is talking to them is actually reprimanding to the guy, and THAT is a situation that no one likes to be in.

[WisperWill70]

Kudos to you for doing a little research and trying to understand everything you can to help you cope. You even offered to "join in"... Why did he react so weirdly? Well for one thing, he might not be able to accomplish the mental 180 required to go from, "She hates porn and hates you watching and thinks it's disgusting" to "she wants to watch it with me and enjoy it." I can see why he might not be able to make that leap!. so you got the deflection and aversion and "case-closed!" reaction. Isn't it true? You hate porn, you've already decided that it's evil and awful and will lead him to stray in his mind, so you becoming part of his porn world seems dicey... he doesn't want you to think of him as disgusting and wrong and he doesn't want you to be upset. His way of solving that is to shut you down.

That said, everything you said about how angry and frustrated you are makes sense given his secretiveness and refusal to "share" and communicate. When someone clams up and shuts down or avoids it triggers our feelings of being unloved and disrespected. (Especially if lies pop up)

Here's some thoughts for you to consider, (before you decide on your relationship) in no particular order:

* You want to be respected and have him be honest. Are you respecting him and being honest? Do you trust him with your real feelings? What if instead of researching and looking at data and trying to change him or research reasons he should stop looking at porn, or why you should change your mind you said directly to him, "I don't feel like I'm important to you. I don't trust that I'm good enough for you. I feel like you don't trust me when it comes to sex" and then LISTEN to and discuss the answers without mentioning the P word!. (betcha anything he has the Same thought about you sometimes) - would you be willing to listen (honest/respectful) if he did? I dare you to say those statements or ask these q. "Do you feel like you're not important to me? Do you feel like you're not good enough? Do you feel like I don't trust you?" Take the porn out of the conversation TOTALLY and let your feelings out, listen (openly!) for the answers.



* You can't change him and if your intention is just about how you're going to convince him that it's wrong or that he'll give it up you're going to lose an opportunity to explore the rest of your relationship and find out how to communicate about this (and other) issues.


*- a breech of trust and communication, defensiveness and withdrawal about any subject in a relationship (This could be about porn, money, philosophies, feelings ) doesn't necessarily mean it's a "Game ender" -- it only means that both people are operating out of fear. You're fearful about the porn, he's fearful about your reaction to porn. He might love you a lot... but you're not feeling it through this topic. When he looks at porn you feel unloved and your feelings misunderstood and when you bring it up (or try to research it on your own) HE feels unloved and misunderstood. When someone LIES they're protecting themselves (but it doesn't help it feel less "personal" I know).

* ---- Is it possible that HE has some negative feelings about porn too and his defensiveness and unwillingness to talk about it (and especially for you to ALSO watch it) reflects on guilt and anger he's hiding from view? Sexuality is a loaded topic... he might seem to be uninhibited what with the loads of porn on his hard drive... but he might still be holding on to judgements about his own sexuality, porn or masturbation that you can't see. One possibility in him not wanting to discuss it is that he feels ashamed about some component of this activity.

* Really look at whether it's true that "porn" is more important to him than YOU ARE.
What if it wasn't true? Did you ASK him? If he told you you were more important would you believe him? Where's your self-esteem at? Also... what makes you think you're so horrible that he would even pick a picture over you in the first place?

( on the flip side... what if "porn" was sometimes more important to YOU than him? After all, you clearly have an issue with it... but porn can't be all that your boyfriend is made of... or the entire sum of his being. What else is there to him? This issue is big enough that you're thinking of leaving.

* It would be nice if he could reassure you about how much you mean to him and that porn isn't important -- but what reassurance have you given him of the same?
(you're thinking of moving out)

Can you really convince yourself "I don't love him" -- will that really work? Probably not. You can't force your brain to stop loving someone.. it doesn't work. If you leave him you just have do decide that you love him but that he/your idiologies differ.

At this next juncture of the relationship (since you're at a crossroads) and need to earn each other's trust, - you BOTH have to take responsibility for your feelings instead of blaming the other person.


Good luck to you!

[backpack2389]

Javi,

In another post I mentioned my attempt to introduce porn into our relationship. The attempt was a total failure because he wouldn't even think twice about it. His reaction mostly seemed to be that he didn't want me to watch it.

Also, you say 'regardless of what I may think' but this whole situation can only play out regardless of what I think. The only solutions which keep me in this relationship involve me developing an ability to accept porn 'regardless of what I may think.'

I know my reluctance to accept his porn use makes me a raving madwoman to the average regular porn user, but when I approached my conversations with him I did so with two ideas in mind: why is he using it when I'm not around and is there something he's turning to porn for that I could do for him. As I have said, I was neither accusing or overly emotional. I was mostly curious. But, he shut the conversation down quickly with a lie. He honestly just wants this to go away without any effort, sacrifice or compromise on his part. Unfortunately, it seems the majority of society supports the idea that I'm not allowed an opinion or voice regarding the porn use thus he doesn't feel badly about acting this way.

[talaniman]

You mean you assume he doesn't feel bad about his reaction. I doubt that society's attitudes and opinions have anything to do with his thoughts, feelings,or attitudes.

That his porn habits are his exclusive privacy right would be my assumption, and he sees you as an intruder.

[mmresd]

Well to be completely honest, who are you to say what he can and cannot do. You either like him for who he is, or you go elsewhere, don't attempt to change him or something that he likes, no one likes to have someone bicker at them about something they have no say in.

You tried to integrate it into your sex life, it didn't work, maybe try it again, if not then just ignore the porn watching, START respecting his privacy, and spice things up in bed. Just because a guy watches porn does not mean he is looking for something else, it just makes it easier to relieve oneself.

You going through his stuff is not really the best way to show that you are OK with it, more like it bothers you especially if you have confronted him about it, why would he want to talk to you about it?

[backpack2389]

Trying to open up a dialogue about something isn't the same as bickering. I have attempted to have a couple of conversations and he has just shut down when I tried. After which, I quit trying because he's never going to want to talk about it.

I have respected his privacy. The whole thing only started because he just left the porn playing on his computer on our bed. After that I began to snoop, mostly curious as to how often he was watching, was it normal or kinky stuff, that kind of curiousity. Not to mention, I don't think there's a single person in a relationship who hasn't done some kind of snooping through what is supposed to be their partner's personal stuff. I've seen him check my phone, email, and fb though I have never given him a reason to think I've cheated or ever wanted to. I think anyone that claims they never snoop must be lying because some curiousity about what your partner hides from you is normal.

And my comments about his attitudes being generated by what is commonly accepted are definitely applicable. He has not said once that he's upset because I was snooping (bc he's not exactly innocent on that front either). He was angry with me because I was unhappy about the porn use and he just didn't want to be annoyed by me having a problem with it. He provided such support for his porn use as "it's not a big deal, every guy does it" and "i don't know why you have a problem with it." Both statements reflecting the influence of ideas that are pervasive in society. The majority of people seem to condone or at least accept porn use and it's so prevalent that most are either using or accepting use of it. If he were to watch two live people have sex in a room, it would essentially be the same thing. He would be having the same involvement and getting the same sexual satisfaction from watching in a room as he does when he sees it on the computer. But, society draws a line between watching it live on the computer vs live in a room. Thus, although the experience he gets would be essentially the same, most people would say one is wrong and the other accepted. It's stupid to think that his reasons for thinking porn is okay are directly related to the prevailing attitudes in society.

[talaniman]

Just like its acceptable to live together and not be married. It's a changed attitude from what it was. We make choices based on what our personal preferences are. He has the same rights to his like/dislikes as you do.

I will say this about your situation, I think his attitude and reactions are far more troubling than the porn. I would expect a more open communications after 5 years. That's not to say this won't be resolved later, as some situations are more difficult than others. Some require more time, thought, and talking about.

Most guys put the movies away after the kids start coming and get older, some go back to them, some don't. But a young guy living with his girl probably has nothing else to do but entertain himself when you aren't around. I don't know why, but some things are best enjoyed in private.

Just curious if you guys watch HBO together? Especially with the soft porn of some that are present in there programming.

[backpack2389]

We don't watch HBO (we got rid of cable to save money) but we have watched many shows together that have softcore content. Are you suggesting that I mention watching that?

Reflecting on his reaction to my suggestion to watch porn, I think partly he didn't want me to be turned on by it (I do think it may have made him feel insecure), but also I think he simply didn't like the fact that I might want to watch it. He always describes me as 'cute' and I think he likes that I tend to be rather conservative, maybe even innocent about many things. I think me coming to him with that suggestion really upset his image of me (as my finding out the extent of his porn use upset me). So, even if it's softcore, I don't think he'll be open to it.

[talaniman]

Thanks for the added insight. I was was not suggesting the soft porn as course of action, but was just wondering if you did watch it together. It could well be that he is setting a double standard for you to keep you pure in his head, but that's not really fair as no one can live under such expectations from another.

If this is the case then its not about porn but living up to his expectations for you. To be blunt he stunts your own ability to explore your curiosity. Which is natural as you seem to be a naturally curios person, and he is having a terrible time balancing his image of you, and his own need/want to have porn as his outlet. The basis for his fear is that you will like porn and watch without him, and is insecure about being compared to the guys you see, just as most females get insecure when they think THEY are being compared to the females on porn.

What makes taking such things personally is that woman always complain about the females and NEVER say anything about the men, even though they are both interacting at the same time. Its generally the same for men who get excited about the women, and ignore the guys altogether.

Does that make sense? Bottom line, I bet its more about him than you and he is insecure about meeting your expectations of how he should be as studly, as the guys you will see performing. So he sets limits for you that he himself cannot/does not set for himself.

That's controlling behavior with fear as the basis. He thinks he is protecting you, but he is merely protecting himself.

Make sense?

[backpack2389]

That entirely makes sense and is exactly what I thought was happening -- minus the controlling part. I don't think he's intending to be controlling. I think he just didn't react well. Honestly though, I have watched a couple of his pornos and don't get it. It doesn't turn me on the way it must turn him on. I think the men and women in it are actually a turn off. The men, even though they may have a large penis, don't do anything for me sexually and he would never have to worry about me thinking about them in that way.

What I was saying about his insecurities regarding my potential porn use (though, for the reasons stated above, this won't become an actuality) is that it's revealing about what could be going on in his mind. If he is comparing me to the women in the films, if he is extremely attracted to them, and if he is thinking about the porn when we're together (all very plausible and natural things to come from the situation) then it only makes sense that he would worry I might do it too. That would be why he might worry I'd compare his performance and appearance and so forth... He wants to be able to think sexually about and masturbate to other people and expects me not to be upset about it though it seems he should understand why I'm upset.

Bottom line, I think the porn has a greater impact on his sexuality than he is willing to admit and was confronted with it when he started worrying about porn use affecting me the same way.

[TheIndiePixie]

Can I ask, has lack of communication been an issue through out different aspects of the relationship or just the porn issue?

[backpack2389]

Can I ask, has lack of communication been an issue through out different aspects of the relationship or just the porn issue?

Hi IndiePixie, I appreciate your attempts to help me, but I've found a way to come to peace with this issue and for now at least don't really need any further advice. Thank you for your help.

[talaniman]

May I ask BP how you came to peace with this issue for the benefit of other readers?

[backpack2389]

The shorter answer…
My feelings and attitudes regarding porn didn't change but my perspective about the entire situation did. There were basically three things that allowed me to move past this 'problem.'

1. I love him and want him to be happy (even if it's at the expense of some of my happiness)
2. Practically speaking, this is something most men do and feel unapologetic about. My chances of finding a man that didn't do this were slim to none.
3. I shut it out of my mind. I quit trying to talk about it and don't touch his computer (he's terrible at hiding it and seeing something would only hurt my feelings).

The longer answer…
I sincerely thought about leaving for a while (feeling that staying was acquiescing). I was furious that he was telling me that I wasn't supposed/allowed to be upset about it. I have always been completely sexually open to him and am always asking if there's something I can do for him. It drove me crazy to feel like I wasn't enough and that my willingness to give went unappreciated. I have also made many changes/sacrifices to make our relationship work and couldn't believe that I wasn't allowed to ask him to return the favor.

In the end, however, I looked at our relationship and realized I wanted to stay. After making that decision what remained was accepting that he wouldn't change (it was hurtful, but I needed to see that my feelings were not an issue for him or at least that he didn't understand them) and figuring out a way to keep the porn from ruining the relationship for me. I tried “if you can't beat 'em, join 'em” but that didn't work. I do not enjoy porn. Maybe that will change, but for now this will be an activity that's exclusively his. So, I decided to simply know that he does it, but keep it from my mind.

My perspective remains however that so many women are upset (on this site and others) by their partner's porn use that I don't believe it is just some crazy unnatural reaction. Yet, the answers that many of these women get (almost regardless of circumstances) convey the message that “there's nothing wrong with porn use. You're wrong to be upset about it.” I think this is a short path to some resolution, but it doesn't address every issue. Many, albeit not all, of the answers I received carried the same sentiment and while that helped me see the situation the way he sees it, it didn't change my feelings. What ended up allowing me to stay was taking a practical perspective and essentially ignoring it. While I don't think this is the ideal way to address a problem, it is working for me.

This whole issue touches on the question of “where do one person's rights end and another's begin?” The line between the two is even more blurry in a relationship where (almost?) everything is supposed to be shared and the two people in it open with each other. It's a question I can't answer so I put my negative feelings aside, focused on the positive, and tried to be more pragmatic.

[talaniman]

Now that's a great and logical attitude in dealing with things beyond your control. Life is never as simple as we see it especially when we share that life with a partner. I have no doubt that life changing events and age will mellow his attitude as well.

It's a journey of learning, growing, and making adjustments. I hope he handles his adjustments with the same grace as you have handled yours. I am impressed.

[Homegirl 50]

I think it's a cop out. Why should you be unhappy and stay without him compromising on something?
Porn is OK, although I don't see what the big deal about it is. You see one, it's all the same. Not something I'd want to watch rather than having sex. When your man is so into it that he neglects you, that is a problem, he has a problem and in a relationship he needs to know you have a problem with it.
The ideal thing would be he says, I know I'm so into this that I'm neglecting you and I'm sorry, lets work together and try and come to some happy medium.
But to say, well that is the way it is and I'll just deal with it because I love him is in my opinion, settling.
This issues will come up again because it has not been dealt with.

[candace s]

I am in the same boat and sometimes don't know whether to sink or swim... only I watch porn with my boyfriend and I enjoy it but my problem is much like your own.. He does not want sex with me much anymore but I've caught him numerous times masterbating to porn after he showed no interest of doing anything sexually with me.. at same time mine has explored the internet and actually had a threesome with a random female... yet he says he loves me and swears he has not lost interest.. may want to exam him more.. good luck on this one