[paraclete]

Hello clete:

Wow... You're a confused laddie, aren't you?? You're a Christian, yet you don't understand commitment... Are you committed to Jesus until somebody better comes along??? Sounds like it.. How come you can't understand somebody with a commitment? You're probably against torture, UNLESS the guy is really really bad.. You're probably against capital punishment UNLESS the guy is really really bad.

Makes no sense to a guy like me.

excon

Ex you don't understand. There is a Biblical standard of justice and it includes capital punishment for heinous crimes. I am committed to Jesus, he wasn't particularly interested, as I read it, in temporal matters but I don't doubt he upheld the standards set down by his father. I am not against capital punishment. I certainly think capital punishment applies in certain crimes and it is not applied frequently enough. Now it appears bleeding hearts like yourself have seen fit to sit in the place of God and put man at the centre of the universe.

[talaniman]

A policy of no capital punishment is not a bleeding heart, nor is putting man at the center of the universe. Considering all the innocents that have gone free, it's a referendum on the criminal justice system to properly apply that justice. An acknowledgment that they are as flawed as the humans who created that system, and who apply it.

The record in the Georgia justice system has been one that's proven to be one that should be limited to justice, and not life and death. Many states have already recognized their flaws, and rejected the death penalty. More will follow eventually.

You cannot compare WAR, to crime and punishment, because its two different things. Feelings have no place in the justice system, since by definition in America it's the finding of FACTS that's important to produce evidence of guilt or innocence.

For that in America that means a good lawyer, one which poor people just don't have.

[excon]

Hello again, clete, Mr. Common Sense Guy:

Let me ask you this... Texas executes more people than the rest of the states put together... We're talking about a ratio of 49 to 1.

Common sense should tell you that either 49 states DON'T care about justice, or Texas is killing just too many people...

Now, I don't know about you, but MY common sense tells me that Texans (with the exception of tal) are BLOOD THIRSTY. You?

excon

[tomder55]

Davis was executed by Georgia. Georgia has averaged less than 2 executions a year since 1976.
The reason it took so long was that Davis exhausted his many appeals . In the end ,the most liberal members of the Supreme Court refused to intervene .

Texas did execute someone on the same day . It was Lawrence Russell Brewer
.No one doubts his guilt . The libs were very silent about the injustice of his execution.
Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people including 19 children. He was executed... I didn't see the widespread outrage over his execution.

There is a "possibilty" that someone who is innocent could spend the rest of their life serving a life sentence and die in jail. Don't we have to guard against that possibility ? Why not ban life sentences too ?

[excon]

There is a "possibilty" that someone who is innocent could spend the rest of their life serving a life sentence and die in jail. Don't we have to guard against that possibilty ? Why not ban life sentences too ?

Hello again, tom:

Because if new evidence shows up, and the guy is ALIVE, he can still get justice.. But, if he's dead, well you can figure it out.

excon

[tomder55]

so then someone serving life and died in jail was never wrongly convicted ? Why not do away with life sentences ?
Can there really be justice if someone is wrongly convicted ? Maybe they only serve a 20 years sentence .If it is subsequently proven that person was wrongly convicted is there ultimately justice because the person is released ? Let's not lock up anyone... only then can we be assured we aren't locking up someone wrongly convicted .
There was no doubt about the Davis conviction.. The fact that some retracted many years after the fact does not change that fact. Take all their testimony out of the equation there was still enough evidence to convict .

I accept that some people have a moral issue with the death penalty . I honor that as a legitimate opposition . This business that someone innocent could be executed is a canard . What are you saying ? That you are OK with someone like McVeigh and Brewer being executed ? Probably not .

So you are reallly saying you have a moral objection to the death penalty and are using this argument of 'the chance of the one innocent' as a ruse.

[talaniman]

You are right Tom, I would rather have a human suffer with the justice of forever losing his freedom, because who knows what happens to a human when they die. Yep, rot in jail is justice to me.

[paraclete]

Hello again, clete, Mr. Common Sense Guy:

Lemme ask you this... Texas executes more people than the rest of the states put together... We're talking about a ratio of 49 to 1.

Common sense should tell you that either 49 states DON'T care about justice, or Texas is killing just too many people...

Now, I dunno bout you, but MY common sense tells me that Texans (with the exception of tal) are BLOOD THIRSTY. You?

excon

About time you exhibited some common sense, Ex. Sounds to me like Texas has a problem, a problem of lawlessness. However they are willing to carry through and deal with the problem.
Look Ex, your jails are full and the prison population is growing. 3% of your population is under some form of criminal administration. Now either you have a problem of lawlessness or you have very bad laws. With one sixth of your population living in poverty maybe it is cheaper to live in jail but I don't think that's the problem.

You have over 700 people per 100,000 of population in prison, by contrast my nation has 150 people per 100,000. Our nations are very similar so there must be a factor or many factors. Your porous borders, your gun policies, your welfare policies, criminalisation of minor offenses, an officious police force, long sentences, too many laws, too many enforcement agencies. What it tells me is the system doesn't work as it should. We don't have local police forces or local jails. That is a big difference in the way justice is administered and we don't feel the need of firearms to feel safe

[talaniman]

How can you compare your lousy 30 million against our 360 million? Keep growing, and see if that changes dramatically.

[paraclete]

Ok Tal, maybe population is a problem and brings its own problems but we too are highly urbanised. No, I think the difference lies in your attitude towards people. This idea I see put here that people should be allowed to sink or swim contributes to criminality. I'm not saying we don't have violent crime or the same sort of problems you do, but our approach is very different. For one thing we don't have the three strikes rule and we have observed that as we followed you and removed judiciary discretion in sentencing our prison population rose.

When I make comparisons between you and us, I make them knowing that despite size our nations are similar in many ways. Large urban populations, underpriviledged sub-culture, migrant populations, similar base for the legal system are just some of the ways in which we are similar, but even for nations of similar size your prison population is way up there and China and India who have vast populations have a much lower prison population than most so don't make excuses for a system that apparently needs reform

[talaniman]

Size does matter though Clete, as rural populations are so wide spread, and as political as the urban centers, and unlike China who can call out the Army when people are unruly we cannot, and India has tradition, culture, and religion, keeping people in line and poor I might add, and our urban centers are diverse, and alive, and somebody goes to jail on Friday and Saturday night after drunken partying. Heck we have more cops too, but when it comes to serious crime, and not just misdemeanors, I am confident we are no more unruly than the rest of the world.

Prisons are a big business here also, and to make money they have to be full don't they? Law and order has nothing to with it, its about money, no doubt. Plus I doubt the Chinese actually tell you what there problems are, they never have.

Now we do have a lot of people who carry guns, but we have the worlds best hunters and game here too, NO DOUBT. But that comes with being a free society, and there are a lot of free thinkers here to boot. You Aussies are cool, but don't look down your nose at the Us of A. That's just not cool since no telling what will happen as you guys grow a bit more, and get the government that in charge of more diverse people and ideas.

I mean look at some of your older countries on the Earth! They have problems! But for all our problems I got to say the death penalty is barbaric. Right out of the middle ages in my view.

[paraclete]

I mean look at some of your older countries on the Earth! They have problems! But for all our problems I got to say the death penalty is barbaric. Right out of the middle ages in my view.

Yes Tal a lot of the older countries have gone backwards but they have never solved their problems by imprisoning people. Hey it is a solution some are using here as an answer to some problems, but it isn't an answer, the illegal immigrants still keep coming, knowing they will be imprisoned, the indigenous still fill the prisons for what are really minor offenses, the migrant gangs cause problems but for all that the rest of us manage to stay out of jail.

Look China hasn't said they don't have problems, what they have really said is it is our problem. Their legal system is different, at lot of time in gathering evidence and it is like so many in the world, no expectation of reasonable doubt, no expectation of innocence, you have to prove your innocence. But for all the rights, etc, you still imprison more people so something isn't working, those civil rights aren't really in effect. Look even Indonesia gives time off just for being there.

You speak about religion as a force in India but Your country has an even better religious base and it hasn't made the difference you might expect. I think the problem is the cult of self, I can't say how it arose but it seems endemic. For someone to discuss a problem isn't looking down their nose at you, you want to discuss some of my problems go right ahead

[tomder55]

The argument that you made that has merit is the one about too much imprisonment for lesser crimes. But all that is besides the point when discussing capital punishment. I give as much detail to the crime committed to make the point that this country doesn't execute lightly (even in Texas) . There is much deliberation involved and plenty of redundant steps taken to do everything possible to ensure those executed have committed an unspeakably henious crime.
Please give me the example of the person executed since 1976(since that is the date from the chart Ex provided ) that was 'innocent' . I've heard a lot of what might happen .

[talaniman]

Illinois.gov - Illinois Government News Network (IGNN) - Search the News Results

Cameron Todd Willingham, Texas, and the death penalty : The New Yorker

In 2005, Texas established a government commission to investigate allegations of error and misconduct by forensic scientists. The first cases that are being reviewed by the commission are those of Willingham and Willis. In mid-August, the noted fire scientist Craig Beyler, who was hired by the commission, completed his investigation. In a scathing report, he concluded that investigators in the Willingham case had no scientific basis for claiming that the fire was arson, ignored evidence that contradicted their theory, had no comprehension of flashover and fire dynamics, relied on discredited folklore, and failed to eliminate potential accidental or alternative causes of the fire. He said that Vasquez’s approach seemed to deny “rational reasoning” and was more “characteristic of mystics or psychics.” What’s more, Beyler determined that the investigation violated, as he put it to me, “not only the standards of today but even of the time period.” The commission is reviewing his findings, and plans to release its own report next year. Some legal scholars believe that the commission may narrowly assess the reliability of the scientific evidence. There is a chance, however, that Texas could become the first state to acknowledge officially that, since the advent of the modern judicial system, it had carried out the “execution of a legally and factually innocent person.”

It's a long read, and should be noted that the FBI has stopped any further forensic investigations until it has concluded there own, on this commission, and the govenor (Perry) may have to explain why the original commission was replaced by his own appointments that validated the junk science findings and denied clemency.

[tomder55]

One would think the beginning and end of the case was the forensic evidence. It was not .

He had a history of spousal abuse. During the incident when urged to go in to the house to try to rescue his children ,he calmly moved his car out of harm's way instead according to testimony... "not once attempting to go inside to rescue his children".
There was also confessions to his ex wife and a cell mate that he did it .

It was the total case that convicted him of which the forensics is but one element.
There was enough evidence to satisy 12 jurors and a judge who could've easily given him a lesser punishment .
With all due respect to the experts who examined the forensic reports after the fact ;they were not there on the scene. There was a 12 year gap between conviction and execution . Testimony showed that at the time of the fire and it's aftermath he was more concerned about his car and the dart board set he lost .

[talaniman]

I did not get that from the same article at all, and did you read the whole thing? But the first link should be even more convincing. 13 death row inmates exonerated and set free?? Out of 25?? Come on those are irrefutable facts, and led to Illinois abolishing the death penalty.

More Facts on the Willingham case, and reread the qualifications of the investigators.

Texas governor shakes up panel probing 2004 execution - CNN.com

[paraclete]

So he was a sociopath, there is good reason to think that a person shouldn't be convicted and executed on forensic evidence any more than he should be convicted on circumstantial evidence but on the evidence of direct witnesses

[talaniman]

They said he was, but he was never interviewed by doctors who testified he was a sociopath. Nobody saw him do it. No character witnesses said he was a sociopath, quite the opposite.

[tomder55]

I took it from what I know about the case... As for Illinois... good for them... it is proper for the states to make their own judgement on this matter . How's the murder rate in Chitown these days ? Never mind I'll tell you... 435 homicides in 2010... and they brag about it being a low rate . But the trend may be moving upward.. Just this month there have been 31 homicides recorded.

[talaniman]

This has nothing to do with crime, but who they pin it on, all bad guys I am sure. High as the homicide rate is, letting half the convicts go is a red flag that something is wrong with this picture.

And don't tell me Texas, or Alabama, or Georgia, or New York is any better at it than Illinois.