[cdad]

Are there any political issues that is at issue ,or is this just an excuse for an anarchist arson and looting fest ?

Does this count??

Ken Livingstone blames Tottenham riot on spending cuts - Telegraph

[paraclete]

So if we kill them all does the problem go away?

That depends on what you see as the problem, but when you have less arsonists, and anarchists, less thugs and thieves in your society your problems certainly diminish

[tomder55]

Does this count??

Ken Livingstone blames Tottenham riot on spending cuts - Telegraph

Yeah you knew that would set me off.
That's what you'd expect from the socialist former Mayor of London Livingstone.

Brings up an interesting point however . You would think with the level of taxation there would be no issues with sovereign debt. The coffers should over flow . The Brits have sunk the wealth of the nation into their Fabian visions of cradle to grave nanny state .
In doing so they destroyed their sacred identity .

What we have on the streets of London and elsewhere are welfare-state mobs. The youth who are ‘rising up’ – actually they are simply shattering their own communities – represent a generation that has been more suckled by the state than any generation before it. They live in those urban territories where the sharp-elbowed intrusion of the welfare state over the past 30 years has pushed aside older ideals of self-reliance and community spirit. The march of the welfare state into every aspect of less well-off urban people’s existences, from their financial wellbeing to their childrearing habits and even into their emotional lives, with the rise of therapeutic welfarism designed to ensure that the poor remain ‘mentally fit’, has helped to undermine such things as individual resourcefulness and social bonding. The anti-social youthful rioters look to me like the end product of such an anti-social system of state intervention.

London's burning: a mob made by the welfare state | Brendan O'Neill | spiked

[cdad]

This is a rather interesting timeline as it has blackberry posts and tweet posts included in it.

London riots: August 8 as it happened - Telegraph

[paraclete]

Yeah you knew that would set me off.
That's what you'd expect from the socialist former Mayor of London Livingstone.

Brings up an interesting point however . You would think with the level of taxation there would be no issues with sovereign debt. The coffers should over flow . The Brits have sunk the wealth of the nation into their Fabian visions of cradle to grave nanny state .
In doing so they destroyed their sacred identity .


London's burning: a mob made by the welfare state | Brendan O'Neill | spiked

So you found an excuse to rant against the nanny state and yet some commentators are saying that the rioters are disaffected youths, the very people marginalised and ignored by attempting to apply the principles you hold so dear. It is said to be a reaction against austerity. If so, then the Brits have joined the Greeks. But let us think for a while about those who have been pictured at the centre of the riots, sorry to mention it but they don't look very anglo-saxon-norman to me, so what we have is an outcome of the stupidity of multiculturism which has created ghettos of the disadvantaged. The welfare state didn't make this mob, migration made this mob, open borders made this mob, and you should take heed about the possibilities of this sort of thing spreading

[QLP]

Actually I would say to some extent the welfare state did make the mob.

There are two sectors of society that seem most inclined to protest about the austerity drive, those on benefits, and those who are working for the public sector.

It is well accepted that benefit claimants have a higher standard of living in the Uk than many low income workers. I live near an area of social housing where the majority don't work yet have houses full of high-end electrical goods and they still manage to fill the pubs on a night. Things that those of us on low incomes do without because we cannot afford them. The benefit cuts haven't even been that stringent but just the idea that they may not be able to afford all they want when they want it is justifcation enough for them to go out and take it apparently. Most people feel that the only benefit claimants with a real axe to grind are the disabled - whilst there are people who have been languising on disability allowance for years with spurious complaints there are others with real need who have been caught up in the austerity drive who are having real difficulty getting financial assistance. Somehow I don't think they are out rioting.

Welfare claimants have got used to years of comfortable living for no effort and now they are spitting the dummy when some of their treats are being threatened. And yet, almost to a one, offer them a job, and my husband experiences this regularly when seeking workers, and they say the pay isn't worth it, they are better off on benefits. Granted the influx of immigrants has created an impetus to keep wages down, but still there are plenty of us willing to work for whatever we can get.

As for the public sector, I have worked in it, and it was great to be on the gravy train. Pensions the private sector can only dream of. Holidays and pay above the average for the pay grade. These are the workers who are bitterly resisitng measures such as expecting them to make a more realistic contribution to their own pensions. Granted there are job losses too, but that also applies to the private sector, but of course the private sector don't have the clout to bring services to a halt so they go off job hunting, for whatever work they can find instead.

Nevertheless when the newspapers are filled daily with stories of bankers raking in multi-million pound bonuses, (bonuses? - for what?), stories of how 80% of new vacancies are going to immigrants, and MPs fiddling expenses to the tune of many thousands of pounds it is no great surprise if social cohesion is poor. Add to that the awareness that immigrants can move in and immediately start claiming a whole raft of benefits that many people who were born here have never availed themselves of, and would get less help in doing so should they find themselves in difficulty. Millions of pounds spent on translators to help immigrants do just that. Can't blame them for wanting to come live here really can you? But can you blame them for taking on the mantle of 'the state owes us' that is so prevalant here? There is a real sense that Joe everybody and his uncle thinks he has a right to come and live in the UK and have their needs met by the state - and the fact is that by our government laws as they stand most of them do.

Nero fiddled while Rome burned. I think the perception is that our own leaders were doing the same while London burned - though no violins were involved...

There are many genuine reasons for malcontent in the UK, but my feeling is that those who chose to express their malcontent in such a disgraceful manner are the spoilt brats that the nanny state spawned.

How much of the recent riots actually relate to this political back-drop I don't know, but I suspect that what we are seeing now had its seeds sown in the last couple of decades of utterly stupid government decisions.

[QLP]

Great attitude... (sarcasm font engaged)

BBC News - London rioters: 'Showing the rich we do what we want'

[QLP]

After the decision to send police to London from elsewhere in the UK, London had a quiter night whilst riots broke out/intensified elsewhere. What a surprise... (sarcasm font still engaged).

UK riots: Sharing of police between cities 'reviewed hourly' | UK news | guardian.co.uk

[paraclete]

QLP I think you just made my point

80% of new vacancies are going to immigrants

Didn't I say the problem was immigration and multiculturism, but what you are failing to say directly is you have too many non-british spongers and yes I do define British in an unfashionable way and not as a citizen of the empire. Have you never heard of shutting the door? According to you these "immigrants" have no reason to steal since they already have above average incomes and benefits, so then I expect that those we see on the streets are second, even third generation, comers

How much of the recent riots actually relate to this political back-drop I don't know, but I suspect that what we are seeing now had its seeds sown in the last couple of decades of utterly stupid government decisions.

I expect your problems have their root in policies which were implemented in the forties and fifties, which is a long time ago.

[QLP]

Don't get me wrong paraclete, I think the open-door policy on immigration and the push for mass multi-culturism has created many problems. And it was done against the wishes of the majority of the British public. However the fact is there are many jobs that are being filled by immigrant workers that unemployed whites will not take for the simple reason they get more money on benefits.

Those on the streets are likely second and third generation benefit claimaints - of all races.

I grew up in a family on benefits, with a mentally ill mother and an alcoholic father. In those days benefits meant getting enough for your basic needs. We lived in poverty, not helped by Pa spending the food money on fags and beer. It gave me quite a work ethic. Since then benefits have become so generous that they can have their fags, beer, food, holidays, and wide-screen TVs. Not much incentive to get off your butt or encourage your kids to do so is it?

I think we can all see the strands of how we came to be in this unholy mess but who the heck can see the way back out of it?

The last government created a situation where the number of people on benefits added to those on the public purse, many in spurious jobs, exceeded those working their asses off in the private sector. That gave them carte blanche to push forward their socialist/liberalist agenda. The Tories could only scrape into power by entering into an unholy alliance with the Liberal democrats so now we have a coalition government which is so busy fighting within itself that actual solutions are very thin on the ground.

Not that I have much faith that the right-wingers would do such a great job if they had an overwhelming majority. Yes, they could push further forward with regard to immigration and welfare reform but they would still spout about equal opportunities whilst giving top jobs and perks to their cronies and milking the system for all they can get. Maybe we should look even further back to where the class system evolved from the days of Feudalsim and serfdom...

[tomder55]

It is my understanding that the right in England campaign on being better nanny state managers. That is not the solution. The people need weening off the dependency . It would be culture shock to cold turkey the addiction. But within a generation the system needs a fundamental change reducing the dependency on government while incorporating a reasonable safety net for those who need it.

[redhed35]

What I see Ex are yobbos, mainly black, youths in hooded jackets and masks, and in my opinion the kindest thing that could be done for them is put them out of their misery. The facts speak for themselves, these are criminals, thugs and thieves, arsonists, anarchists and they should be treated to the same violence they inflict on society, a little bit of the old ultra-V..

Now I know that won't accord with your bleeding heart liberal view of life but then I'm not here to please you:D

Have to agree here, shoot them, and if their mothers start bauling shoot her too,plenty of room left here in the wicklow mountains for a few more.

Place a curfew and if your out after 10pm you better be able to answer a few questions, zero tolerance.

[NeedKarma]

have to agree here, shoot em, and if their mothers start bauling shoot her too

I'm just having a chuckle at this coming from the Social Care & Youth Expert. :D

[redhed35]

I'm just having a chuckle at this coming from the Social Care & Youth Expert. :D

The irony is not lost of me.

There are so many teens and young adults who try so hard every day to improve their lives and the lives of their families, some of the backgrounds and trauma they have experienced curls my toes its so bad, but their not out fecking rioting in the streets, they choose not to.

Ireland has the same bloody problem with the social welfare system, in some areas its generation after generation its acceptable and normal... except that its not!

There are new laws coming into place in ireland where to get a social welfare payment you must be going back to education or do community service, sitting on your arse all day is no longer an option nor acceptable.

Cull the yobs, granted you will always have a few rats in the barrel, the prisons are chock a block, so what else can we do...

[QLP]

It is my understanding that the right in England campaign on being better nanny state managers. That is not the solution. The people need weening off the dependency . It would be culture shock to cold turkey the addiction. But within a generation the system needs a fundamental change reducing the dependency on government while incorporating a reasonable safety net for those who need it.

Couldn't agree more. The only caveat I would add is that the privelidged classes have to realise it is in their own best interests and in the interests of a cohesive society to genuinely open up opportunities and fairness for those that are willing to work for them. The road to success needs to be based on skill, expertise, and positive attitude, not on whether you are wearing the right school tie. Social mobility in the Uk is falling and is significantly lower than in many developed countries. This is not all due to poor aspirations.

The last government introduced various schemes which were supposed to tackle social mobility but were badly thought out social engineering experiments.

For example, my own son gained a place at a top university. He was bright and worked hard and was one of the lucky few who managed it on his own merit. Two years later when my daughter was applying a scheme had been brought in whereby if you were the first in your family to go to university you would be awarded extra points so you could get in easier. The fact that her brother had worked hard meant my daughter was not eligible. How did having a hard working brother make her priviledged? Didn't matter as she got the grades anyway, but how silly.
Now universities have quotas, so have to limit the number of students from 'top colleges'. My own son won a place at a top college, again through his own merit and with no privelidged background, but if the scheme had applied earlier he could well have missed out on his hard earned university place by not being disadvantaged enough, Ie because he worked too hard. Madness.

Where politicians do acknowledge blocks to social mobilty they make totally cack-handed attempts to deal with this.

In the same way positive discrimination has been introduced.

So, you do all the 'right' things and still don't get the job. No wonder so many who are actually willing to work are feeling disenfranchised.

[paraclete]

Disenfranchised, disadvantaged these are words we need to stop using. People are only disadvantaged by their inability to try. I was born with nothing, my parents had very little and left me no legacy but by hard work and study I have all I need. I had no one to pay my way into higher education, I paid for it myself.

The system has gone too far into providing places for those who don't appreciate them. All we have taught them is to expect to be given something because they turn up and those who think they should be allowed to smash, burn and steal because they have nothing better to do should be met with the same force we would have used on an invading army. This demonstrates how desperately western society needs a system of national service where youth is taught discipline. Where they cannot spend their time playing violent video games but must deal with real life situations, contributing to their community. I saw a UK youth worker on TV tonight saying that their society owed these youth something. From their behaviour I would say it owed them a good swift kick and one for their parents as well

[QLP]

Don't get me wrong, I have no time or sympathy for those who refuse to try and who feel the state owes them a living. Where I do have sympathy is for those who have all the right attributes to succeed but know that many doors will remain closed to them just because of their background, because they didn't go to the right school, although they got the right qualifications, and didn't move in the right circles. Whilst those at the bottom of the pile have a disproportionate sense of entitlement, so do those at the top. They expect to cherry pick all the plum roles for little other reason than they came from the right families and went to the right schools.

Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Run Britain, BBC Two - The Arts Desk | reviews, news, interviews

To my mind the best way to motivate people is with a combination of carrot and stick. The trouble is we have stopped having the courage to use the stick, give people a generous bagful of carrots when they are not prepared to till the soil to grow them, but make sure few of the hard-toiling workers acutally get a chance in the running of the carrot farm. Even if they have the best credentials for growing carrots, if they aren't in the carrot bosses' little social circle they won't be getting into the carrot boardroom.

My parents generation had little expectation of social mobility, since they 'knew their place.' Younger people have been sold the idea that if they work hard the world is their oyster. Sadly, many of the upper echelons still have a feeling that the working classes should know their place and the masses have cottoned on to the fact that what they were sold is not quite accurate.

Politicians seem to fall into one of two camps. Either 'they are all lazy blighters who need a kick up the arse', or 'they are all poor little disadvantaged souls who just need a leg up, more help, more nannying. '

All I am calling for is a little common sense somewhere in between. Give people the incentive to work by making it less cushy not to do so and give them the desire to want to do better by making opportunities genuinely open to those capable of, and willing to, take them.

[tomder55]

The only caveat I would add is that the privelidged classes have to realise it is in their own best interests and in the interests of a cohesive society to genuinely open up opportunities and fairness for those that are willing to work for them. The road to success needs to be based on skill, expertise, and positive attitude, not on whether you are wearing the right school tie. Social mobility in the Uk is falling and is significantly lower than in many developed countries. This is not all due to poor aspirations.

As you know ,as power is concentrated in the central government ,leadership often devolves into an oligarchy of the privileged few .
Attributed to Alexander Tytler :
Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.

Hail Britannia ! We aren't far behind you.

[Curlyben]

Well this sums it up for me: COMMENT: Shop all the Croydon looters (From Croydon Guardian)

[NeedKarma]

As you know ,as power is concentrated in the central government ,leadership often devolves into an oligarchy of the privileged few.
Hail Britannia ! We aren't far behind you.

I'd say you're already there!