[Festoids]

Speaking of Michael Vick...

Shamataz:

When breeding dogs the whole purpose should be to 'better the breed' meaning to try and breed as close to the breed standard as you can get in the hopes of achieving perfection.
With bettering the breed you a) Are trying to breed as close to the standard as possible by selecting dgs with complimenting features,

Part b) of bettering the breed is with health.

Michael Vick was a professional dog fighter (albeit not a very good one) which means, like all professional dog fighters, they were breeding dogs to their standards.

By the by, in my opinion the AKC is a crap organization who has ruined many a good breed. Got a couple three horror stories of my own about the AKC.

[Festoids]

Calling bull on this one. I am no more responsible your dog as a dog in a shelter. What I am responsible for is my dog and my dog alone.


People have the right to be cruel to their animals. You have the right to not associate with them.

[Alty]

Hmm, impressive list for someone who doesn't seem to like dogs. I have to ask, why do you do so much work with animals if you don't care about their welfare, and consider them property?

Incorrect. If it wasn't for state mandated shelters and laws then people would have to be responsible.

No, they'd revert to drowning their dogs in the lake in their yard, or hanging them from a tree, or the killing of choice amongst current haters, setting them on fire. Not having shelters won't make people responsible. It will just mean that more dogs will die, or be left to fend for themselves.

Once again you're incorrect. Every fighting chance? Have you released them from the shelter to run free and fend for themselves? That constitutes a fighting chance. As opposed to keeping them in the shelter until their date of death at an employee's hands.

So your solution is to let them go free, creating even more puppies, or dying a slow painful death of starvation and exposure to the elements? Seriously? What's wrong with you? Personally, if I was a dog, I'd rather have a chance at a home, than certain death on the streets. But hey, that's just me, I'm crazy like that.

But we do stuff them into gas chambers or fill their veins with an overdose of barbiturates to cause the animals. Why? Because it makes us feel good about what we do to the animal. To the animal it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's purple juice or the gas or a bullet or a guillotine. The animal doesn't possess the cognitive awareness to appreciate the method of death. We do. To the animal, dead is dead.

Who's this 'we" you're talking about? At the shelter I volunteered at, it was a humane death, no pain. You are right, dead is dead, but until people stop breeding irresponsibly, this will continue. The way to stop shelters from being overpopulated is to spay or neuter your pets, and only allow responsible legitimate breeders to breed. That's a fact buddy, like it or not.

In some cases they are killed the moment the previous owner has signed them over to the shelter.

It's amazing the lack of information you have about shelters. I have never once seen a dog killed immediately upon arrival at our shelter. One dog, a dog that I very much adored but couldn't adopt (he didn't do well with children or other pets, and I have 2 kids and 3 dogs, and a whole lot of other animals). His name was Boots, he was 8 years old, he was in the shelter for almost 2 years before they had to euthanize him.

Not talking about SPCA's. If all the shelters were privately run without taxpayer support I would have no complaint. As it is, it's the animal welfarists and rightists that insisted governments operate shelters in addition to the privately owned shelters.

What do you think the government operated shelter is called? Welcome to the SPCA! They get very little if any government funding, at least where I live. It's the support of your so called "animal welfarists" that keep the shelter running. There are privately owned shelters as well, but the SPCA isn't one of them.

Only because they're bored, eh? Frankly, I've heard many, many explanations as to why they were surrendering their animal(s). Even had one guy say by giving up his dog he could buy more beer as opposed to dog food. But never heard anybody say they were bored with their animal.

And your point is?

And? What does your opinion mean to another person and their property?

My decision? It's not my decision. Are you saying that dogs aren't living breathing feeling beings? What are they? Robots? Are you for real? They're not property! Your house is property. Your car is property. Your clothes are property. A living being is not property, or do also deem your spouse as property? Are you one of those?

No. The prospective owners are irresponsible for not educating themselves on looking for a proper dog and breeder. The breeder is merely using his/her property as they see fit. It's up to us as to whether we purchase or not.

You couldn't be more wrong. I hate to burst your holier than thou bubble, but if people didn't breed, there would be no owners buying backyard breeder pups. Most people don't have the sense God gave a goat when it comes to animals, your posts and the post of the OP is evidence of that.

I didn't mention the pros and cons of altering one's animal. What I did mention was that the altering is an intentional act of mutilation to the genitalia, or more correctly, the reproductive organs of animal. And it causes pain and in most cases it's unnecessary to alter an animal so that would, by definition, constitute cruelty.

LMAO! My husband, who had a vasectomy a while back, is really having a good laugh at your post. The animal is asleep while this surgery is done. There is pain, yes, but pain meds can help alleviate it. My husband was awake when they poked the hole in his scrotum, fished around, cut the tubes, and then sent him home with a bag of frozen peas and a pat on the back. We're cruel by neutering or spaying? You're a joke!

You picked the wrong forum to spout your hatred of animals. To call them property, to say that people should be allowed to be cruel to one of God's creatures, you are not going to be well liked or respected here, I can tell you that.

So stick around, maybe you'll learn something from real human beings that actually give a damn about every living creature on this earth.

[Aurora_Bell]

I can't believe someone with so much credentials can be so jaded towards the rescue world.

I'm not going to pick apart your post, unfortunately I think my hot head would get in the way of me making any good points.

What you are saying is so dated, I find it hard to believe your dates with your credentials.

Wanting to buy beer with the dog food money, does constitute as an irresponsible pet owner In my opinion. Owning an animal is a privilege not a right. I guess saying they were bored was the wrong word to use, I didn't mean literally bored, I meant any sorry excuse for giving up their dog. And yes in my opinion there are FEW and FAR between reasons to give up on YOUR responsibilities as a pet owner.

Do you think an animal running free, getting infested with parasites and disease, not wondering where he will get his next meal from, (and no, I am not talking about dogs living in the wild, I am talking about a DOMESTICATED dog) constitutes as a good life?

An unprovoked dog bite is a good reason to put a dog down. Ask me about my previous rescue. Hardest thing I have ever done.

I have volunteered my time at many shelters across Canada, and have never seen them get put down as soon as they arrived.

As far as the mutilation comment, all I can do is laugh and shake my head at your ignorance.

[aimee_tt]

Both my dogs haven't come from a shelter. My first dog came from a lady up the road who didn't have her dog desexed. 4 weeks after we got my dog (bonnie) her brother died in the house they were living in from Parvo. We had already had given her needles or shecould have been next. Next week the mother died. She is a Maltese Poodle x Silky and we love her with all our hearts but she is desexed.

My other dog (jemma) was rescued from a house who bred the dogs for extra cash. The litter before jemma was put in a plastic bag by the husband and ran over by his car as he couldn't sell them.

So the second litter was bought off tem by their sister in law. As she drove up to the house the kids ran inside leaving jemma right next to a drain she grabbed her put her in the car then purchased the rest.

She took them in at a really young age and bottle fed the 4 pups. Then she gave 2 pups to us so we could help her feed them. Jemma was lucky to have bonnie as a mother type. She would follow bonnie around all day then my sisters dog (belgium sheppard) would come over to clean her.

My dogs could have been dead if we didn't take them. Because of unexperienced back yard breaders.

[Kitkat22]

You are a know it all and pity the dogs you have. I have four brothers and two sisters. They all have dogs who have neutered or spayed. You are so misinformed it's pathetic.

If you have dogs I'll bet you train them and you're probably mean to them. People like you should stick to something you know about.

We are animal lovers here. As Alty said this just isn't your day to pick on animals or talk to people here about your idiotic ideas.

Maybe you need to get into a different line of work.

[Alty]

Speaking of Michael Vick...

Shamataz:

Michael Vick was a professional dog fighter (albeit not a very good one) which means, like all professional dog fighters, they were breeding dogs to their standards.

By the by, in my opinion the AKC is a crap organization who has ruined many a good breed. Got a couple three horror stories of my own about the AKC.

Are you reading the posts we write? Where in her post did Shazzy condone dog fighting? No one on this forum would condone that. Michael Vick was not a legitimate breeder, he's more like you, thinking that dogs are property to do with as you please. He bred pitbulls to fight, he didn't care about the breed standard, and furthering the breed, he did more harm for pitbulls than anyone.

Also, where did you get the AKC stuff from? Shazzy is in Australia, she doesn't go by the American Kennel Club standards. Bella and I are in Canada, no AKC here either.

You may want to get your facts straight before you blabber away your nonsense. Funny thing is, as soon as you started posting I had a feeling you'd be a problem. I guess my spidey senses were tingling. You're welcome to your opinion, but when it comes to byb and puppymills, shelters and dogs, you may want to stick to facts and stop making stuff up to suit your purposes.

[Sariss]

Wow. Isn't touching this crap with a ten foot pole.

[Festoids]

Altenweg,

Hmm, impressive list for someone who doesn't seem to like dogs. I have to ask, why do you do so much work with animals if you don't care about their welfare, and consider them property?

Never said I didn't like dogs. Matter of fact, I like my dog very much. Like my cats too. Have three of those.

Here's my dog: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v643/Festoid/?action=view&current=Pics020.jpg&newest=1#!oZZ33QQ currentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fsmg.photobucket.com%2Falbums %2Fv643%2FFestoid%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DP ics020.jpg%26newest%3D1

Cute, ain't he. Name's Rommel.

I left the animal care profession in 2004 due to the animal rights mentality that is now taking over the job. I do do some obedience training and rarely attack work training with the right dogs (and owners) who possess the right temperament.

Animals are property. If you say otherwise why do you confine animals to a kennel in a shelter and transfer ownership to another (adoption)? If animals are not property why are you responsible for your animal's actions?

No, they'd revert to drowning their dogs in the lake in their yard, or hanging them from a tree, or the killing of choice amongst current haters, setting them on fire. Not having shelters won't make people responsible. It will just mean that more dogs will die, or be left to fend for themselves.

Point.

No more overpopulation problem. Shelters merely promote irresponsibility (somewhere to dump the animal/shirk off the killing yourself) and the overpopulation issue.

So your solution is to let them go free, creating even more puppies, or dying a slow painful death of starvation and exposure to the elements? Seriously? What's wrong with you?

There is a solution for dogs running free. As I've told people, if you don't want your pet injured or dead, don't let it leave your property. Like the woman who wrote a letter to the editor here a few years ago blaming the driver of the car for hitting and killing her dog. It's not like the driver drove through her fence, into her yard and ran over the dog. The dog was wandering up and down the highway after she let it out of the yard.

If they're not property, that makes them sovereign beings capable of making their own decisions and being afforded full rights. It's you who would be in the wrong for not letting them run free and possessing the right to procreate and survive on their own. In other words, you are violating the inherent rights of the animal by imprisoning them, performing surgery upon them without their permission and perhaps even putting the needle of death into them.

Personally, if I was a dog, I'd rather have a chance at a home, than certain death on the streets. But hey, that's just me, I'm crazy like that.

Seriously, if you were a dog you would not possess the cognitive ability to appreciate the methods of death. As I mentioned before, the dog can't tell the difference between the purple juice and Michael Vick's power source.

Who's this 'we" you're talking about? At the shelter I volunteered at, it was a humane death, no pain.

Are you even aware of the AVMA's standards for euthanasia of animals? A method that causes a rapid loss of consciousness resulting in death. Some approved methods are injection, carbon monoxide and even gunshot. Here, this is worth a read: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:4-YmFfnYIfMJ:www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf+AVMA,+approved+methods+of+euthan&hl =en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgVmP7XOtURnvWMAVZl5j9 p5o6oGg6H51C0prv2XF7UH2chQ3IH6377zyHO8juHMNW18LRB6 MCRP13dzDtfX9l5PC5_G3EjO79CNa8oT0mVje9so9T9-JUydMogKQzktaM8zqEc&sig=AHIEtbRF9ddK7vVPWXzLrOqvFn X85tHTXw

You are right, dead is dead, but until people stop breeding irresponsibly, this will continue. The way to stop shelters from being overpopulated is to spay or neuter your pets, and only allow responsible legitimate breeders to breed. That's a fact buddy, like it or not.

Only breeders you and others of your mindset would find acceptable. Correct? Another way to stop shelters from being overpopulated is to close them all down and put the responsibility back on the people. And that's a fact, buddy.

It's amazing the lack of information you have about shelters. I have never once seen a dog killed immediately upon arrival at our shelter.

We put down dog's all the time when they arrived at the shelter. Dog surrendered sick. Dog surrendered injured (got a story on that one). Dog surrendered with a previous bite. Dog surrendered that's aggressive. We did have a steady flow of incoming animals at our shelter.

One dog, a dog that I very much adored but couldn't adopt (he didn't do well with children or other pets, and I have 2 kids and 3 dogs, and a whole lot of other animals). His name was Boots, he was 8 years old, he was in the shelter for almost 2 years before they had to euthanize him.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v643/Festoid/?action=view&current=Hondo01.jpg&newest=1

See this dog? His name was Hondo. I "adopted" this dog in 1994. I was working at the clinic at Ft. Stewart when the game wardens brought this dog in from the range. They found him lying next to a wild boar he had just killed. He stayed his required three days for the owner to show. Then a week went by. The time he was there I would walk him every day. He stayed up in the clinic work area most of time when we were working, except when a cat came back there. He was a bona fide cat killer. I would give him donuts every morning. Then one day my veterinarian walked up to me as I'm popping syringes for the morning schedule and she had a record and vaccine in her hand. And she said, "Give the dog a shot, sign the paperwork and take YOUR dog home." I had him trained in Schutzhund and he knew around 25 commands in English, German and in hand signals. I put him down on my 10 year wedding anniversary in 2003 when he was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma. He was given one last BK Whopper, carried out to the back yard and I put a bullet into him. I then buried him next to his kennel, in the shade, on his pillow and wrapped in his favorite blanket.

Now when it comes to Boots... how many other adoptable dogs were sacrificed to keep Boots in a kennel? Were those dogs lives worth it?

And your point is?

People give up their animals for a myriad of reasons. Case in point. One of my cats I got from our shelter because the owners were getting divorced and the wife wanted to make sure her husband didn't get the cat.

My decision? It's not my decision.

Then who's decision is it to exert control through force over another person's property. It's got to be somebody recommending the writing of the laws. Correct?

Are you saying that dogs aren't living breathing feeling beings? What are they? Robots? Are you for real? They're not property! Your house is property. Your car is property. Your clothes are property.

Of course dog's are living, breathing things. But they're also property. To say otherwise is to afford them rights. The only rights a dog possesses are those that are given to them by the owner as an extension of the owner's property. Case in point, whenever you euthanize a dog in your shelter you are exercising your property rights. Remember the requisite three days for the owner to claim the animal? What happens after those three days? Ownership of the dog transfers to the shelter. Ownership = Property.

A living being is not property, or do also deem your spouse as property? Are you one of those?

I don't lower a human to the level of an animal. Perhaps you place equal value on the life of a human as compared to the life of a dog. Don't know. But you said you were crazy like that.

What do you think the government operated shelter is called? Welcome to the SPCA! They get very little if any government funding, at least where I live. It's the support of your so called "animal welfarists" that keep the shelter running. There are privately owned shelters as well, but the SPCA isn't one of them.

To the best of my knowledge every state, every county has an animal shelter (United States). Some are owned outright by the county. Some, like a humane society are contracted by the county. In either case taxpayer monies are being used to fund these shelters. Every time an animal comes into a contracted humane society, the county pays the bill for a certain amount of days, typically three to five days per animal.

LMAO! My husband, who had a vasectomy a while back, is really having a good laugh at your post. The animal is asleep while this surgery is done. There is pain, yes, but pain meds can help alleviate it. My husband was awake when they poked the hole in his scrotum, fished around, cut the tubes, and then sent him home with a bag of frozen peas and a pat on the back. We're cruel by neutering or spaying? You're a joke![/QUOTE]

Did you come up behind your husband, knock him out, have him thrown on a table then give him the vasectomy? Or did he do it voluntarily? Did you ask the dog if he wanted to be castrated? Or was it: "Hey Buddy-Ruff, time to cut off your nuts." See, there is a difference. If animals are not property, then how can you justify castrating the dog? Concede the point yet?

You picked the wrong forum to spout your hatred of animals. To call them property, to say that people should be allowed to be cruel to one of God's creatures, you are not going to be well liked or respected here, I can tell you that.

I couldn't care less about being liked or respected. It's an internet forum board. You've implied that I have a hatred of animals. Matter of fact, a couple of people here have made that claim.

Want to talk about cruelty to God's creatures. Lettuce talk about your life and how you use animals to benefit you.

So stick around, maybe you'll learn something from real human beings that actually give a damn about every living creature on this earth.

Yeah, I'll stick around. Maybe some of you will learn a little sumpin too. Other than casting ad hominems.

[Aurora_Bell]

You Fester, are an idiot.

[Alty]

Animals are property. If you say otherwise why do you confine animals to a kennel in a shelter and transfer ownership to another (adoption)? If animals are not property why are you responsible for your animal's actions?

Have you ever been to an orphanage? Heard of one? It's where kids without parents go. They live there in small rooms, usually as a group, waiting to be adopted. Once you adopt a child, if it breaks the neighbors window, or does something else he/she shouldn't, you, as the parent, are responsible for those actions. Are kids property too? I guess maybe in your world they are.

No more overpopulation problem. Shelters merely promote irresponsibility (somewhere to dump the animal/shirk off the killing yourself) and the overpopulation issue.

Are you really that daft? Overpopulation is not caused by shelters, it's cause by over breeding. Duh! Use your head for just one minute and think about it. If backyard breeders didn't breed, there would be no animals in the shelters! Legit breeders do not adopt out to anyone that answers an ad. You have to sign a legal document stating that you'll not only spay or neuter your pet, but if you should choose you don't want the responsibility any more, the breeder (a real breeder) will take the dog back. You will never see a dog from a real breeder in a shelter. Ever!

If they're not property, that makes them sovereign beings capable of making their own decisions and being afforded full rights. It's you who would be in the wrong for not letting them run free and possessing the right to procreate and survive on their own. In other words, you are violating the inherent rights of the animal by imprisoning them, performing surgery upon them without their permission and perhaps even putting the needle of death into them.

How many pieces of human property do you have? If you have kids, according to you, they're your property. If they're not, than you should set them free, let them fend for themselves, let them procreate and do as they please.

Are you even aware of the AVMA's standards for euthanasia of animals? A method that causes a rapid loss of consciousness resulting in death. Some approved methods are injection, carbon monoxide and even gunshot.

Have you ever been in the room when an animal is being euthanized at the shelter? I have, many times. It's a peaceful painless death. Maybe were you live it isn't, but here we have laws against unnecessary cruelty to animals, and the people that care about these animals make sure that they go peacefully.

Only breeders you and others of your mindset would find acceptable. Correct? Another way to stop shelters from being overpopulated is to close them all down and put the responsibility back on the people. And that's a fact, buddy.

You really are counting on the human race to do the responsible thing, aren't you? Take off your rose colored glasses and realize that you're not the only irresponsible person living on this earth, there are billions just like you, which is why we need shelters!

Breeders I and my mindset approve of? What are you spewing about now? The only thing I require when breeding a dog is that you do the genetic testing to make sure that you're not passing down defects to the puppies, you learn what you have to do to ensure the safety of the mother and the puppies, you have enough knowledge and money to do everything you must to ensure their health, and you make all new owners sign a contract stating that they will not breed their puppy, and if they should wish to relinquish the dog, it goes back to the breeder.

That's not a huge list, and it should be the standard.

We put down dog's all the time when they arrived at the shelter. Dog surrendered sick. Dog surrendered injured (got a story on that one). Dog surrendered with a previous bite. Dog surrendered that's aggressive. We did have a steady flow of incoming animals at our shelter.

You didn't say sick dog. If a dog is too sick to live, yes, it's put down. That's the humane thing to do. As for aggression, at our shelter we have behavioral experts that work with the dog. If the dog is too far gone, deemed unfit to adopt, that's when he/she is put to sleep. That decision takes months. It's not a one day thing to try to rehabilitate a dog.

Then who's decision is it to exert control through force over another person's property. It's got to be somebody recommending the writing of the laws. Correct?

If you want to take your couch into your yard and shoot it, go ahead. If you want to throw you shoe into the pond, go ahead. If you want to hang your raggedy andy doll in you tree, go for it. Those are all your property. They don't feel anything, they aren't breathing, living beings. What you do with your dog, that's my business, and I will make it my business as long as people like you exist in this world. That's a promise!

Case in point, whenever you euthanize a dog in your shelter you are exercising your property rights

You should up your meds. None of the dogs in my care are my property. Having a dog is not a right, it's a privilege! I have never euthanized a dog in "my" shelter. When I say "my" shelter I mean the shelter in my city. I'm the one that hold the dogs head, pets him, cries for him, when the needle goes in. I'm the one that wishes it was legal for me to have more than 3, because every single dog on the list to be killed would be coming home with me. Sadly the laws are such that I'm only allowed 3, and that's how many I have and always will have. When the day comes that I can have more, or I finally win the lottery and buy 30 acres of land, those dogs will be coming to live with me.

If animals are not property, then how can you justify castrating the dog? Concede the point yet?

You think kids are property too, don't you? Everything you say leads to you owning children as well. Do you have kids? Is one of them a boy? Did you have him circumcised? If you did, did you ask your days old infant if he wanted to skin on his penis cut off, or did you just go for it? If you did, were you at least kind and put him to sleep for the procedure, or did you just let the doctor take a knife and start slicing away while he was fully conscious? Concede the point yet?

Lettuce talk about your life and how you use animals to benefit you.

Go for it. How do I use animals to benefit me? I'm dying to hear this.

[aimee_tt]

My dogs aren't my property. They are like my babies, a part of the family. I love them and want to care for them.

No dog is anyone's property and if you think they are then you don't like your dog. If you liked/loved your dog you wouldn't think of it as your property but as a loved member of your family.

[Lucky098]

*sigh* What is the purpose of your rants Festoids?

I agree, animals are considered "property"... Property is very easily thrown away. Hence why our shelters are OVER populated.

I think we, being humans.. having the higher level of intellegence (for the most part) can figure out a way to be humane towards these animals that we created to become very dependent on us.

If animals were left alone, they would create their own hierarchy. Within those hierarchies, they would establish the leaders (Alpha male and female) Only alpha male and female are aloud to breed. The human race has basically bred these animals to want to breed more. Dogs are very immature versions of wolves. They are sexually mature, but have no natural leadership. They follow whoever has a strong personality and will obey.

I don't believe that we should kill animals for the mere fun of it. The more and more that animal abuse is being exposed, the worse it is. People are burning their dogs, beating their animals until the animal is brain dead, drowning them because they just don't work, tossing them out of their cars in the middle of no where and driving off.. starving them until they die... THAT is cruel. That is cruel no matter how you look at it.. If you're an animal lover or not, that is cruel.

You are a very sick person if you think that that is OK. I'm totally with you on the fact that shelters don't seem to be helping the problem with over population, because a lot of shelters will adopt a dog out to a home that won't care for the dog/cat.. But I also think that people who do starve and beat their animals are some sick and twisted individuals.

Maybe spaying and neutering isn't the solution. Maybe the cure to the pet overpopulation IS placing responsibility back onto the owners.. but unfortunately, no one is ever at fault when it comes to something. Its always someone else's fault, there is always a reason as to why something happened. My favorite excuse is "the dog belonged to my son" the son is 6 yrs old. How can a 6 yr old CHILD be responsible for feeding, watering and cleaning up after the dog? Children do not NEED that type of responsibility.. they can help.. but mom and dad should always be in control.

If you don't like animals, don't own them. Very simple solution. If you don't agree with the animal rights and laws for animal cruelty, then come up with a better solution. Fighting pit bulls live horrible lives. If they lose, they die. They die a horrible death. Yes, those dogs were bred to fight, but they were also created by man. Dogs are not naturally aggressive to the point of killing each other. That behavior is purely man made.

Separation anxiety is a human created sickness. Dogs are not born that way. We create it because we leave them home alone as babies up to 10 hours a day 5-7 days a week. That would drive any person absolutely nuts.

Humans ensure that every puppy survives. The strongest pups are no longer the only survivors in litters. Nature no longer takes its course. Genetic problems arise because of this. People are not making sure that the dogs that are being bred are genetically sound. Not even the top notch breeders produce pure bloodlines. If you research any bloodline, you will see linebreeding, which is a fancy word for inbreeding.

Humans have created every thing that is wrong. And now we feel as if we have the right to take life because "its not wanted anymore". No one takes responsibility for the abuse, neglect and starvation of any animal. It is always someone else's fault. We take life as quick as we create it.

I am an animal advocate, and I believe many other people are on here as well. I will always stand by the animals before I stand up for a person. Animals Don't have a choice. They cannot say what hurts. They cannot tell anyone what they believe is right or wrong. So I guess I will.

[Catsmine]

Now that you've quit "spitting vitriol," Festoids, you make some good points.

Alty, yes, children and animals are "property." You yourself were considered chattel not so very long ago. Society is growing but we're not there yet.

Festoids, Lucky explained your point about shelters being an excuse for overbreeding well enough I'm forced to agree. Shelters are an excuse for pet owners to dodge responsibility. Unfortunately, I don't feel the confidence in people you seem to. They will find other excuses.

Closing all the shelters would have one immediate effect. Packs of feral animals hunting anything they can eat, including your cats and my kids. Short term problem, to be sure, but dangerous until we hunt them down. With society's attitudes towards hunting, it could get bad.

I'm going to leave the neutering issue alone. I'm for it. 'Nuf said.

I applaud you for taking responsibility for Boots. Being man enough to take care of your friend can be difficult, and may be the root of most of the arguments on this forum.

[Alty]

Alty, yes, children and animals are "property." You yourself were considered chattel not so very long ago. Society is growing but we're not there yet.

I adore you Cats, but I have to say that I don't agree. My children are a part of my family, they are not something I own, they are not something easily discarded, that's why they're not property. I feel the same way about my dogs.

Shelters are an excuse for pet owners to dodge responsibility. Unfortunately, I don't feel the confidence in people you seem to. They will find other excuses.

Exactly. If it weren't for shelters there would be millions of dogs, in America alone, that are either released, or killed inhumanely by their owners.

I applaud you for taking responsibility for Boots. Being man enough to take care of your friend can be difficult, and may be the root of most of the arguments on this forum.

Boots was the name of my old friend, Festoids dog had another name. ;)

I do agree that in the face of death taking your dog and ending it's misery is not inhumane. A bullet to the head isn't a terrible thing in that case. I know I'll catch flack for that but it's not something I disagree with. A loving owner ending their animals pain is never something I will disagree with. Sadly too many people don't resort to this because an animal is sick. Too many times Fido get's a bullet in the brain because he ate Mama's $500 shoes. That I don't agree with. That dog has a chance to find a home, and it should be given every chance to do so.

I have realized one thing in this conversation. The shelters in the US must be horrible. I'm not in the US, I'm in Canada. The Humane society (formerly the SPCA) in my area is one of the best I've ever seen. The animals there live better than most animals that have homes. Large kennels, behavior training, walks, they even have a huge off leash area for the dogs to run around in. They don't live life in a cage, in fact, they spend very little time in the cage period. The volunteers are the heart of that shelter. Without them they wouldn't be able to do what they do. Also, no healthy adoptable animal is euthanized. They don't put dogs to sleep because of space issues. Many of the dogs are put into foster homes until they can find their forever home.

Check out the link;

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...C-3tFw&cad=rja

This is my local shelter.

[shazamataz]

Fester... Why did you quote my post and try to associate it with dog fighting?

People who breed dogs for fighting clearly do not breed to the breed standard as NO breed standard states dog should be viscious.
All dog fighters care about is temperament, not conformation.

I could write an essay on the comments made here about shelters but all I will say is I would rather see an animal put to sleep humanely at a shelter than to see it set on fire, drowned, shot or ran over.
I actually know someone who hit their dog over the head with an axe because it "pi$$ed in the house"
If that dog had have been taken to a shelter he would have been adopted in a heartbeat, he was such a sweetheart.

[Kitkat22]

Who in the world would want to learn anything from you? Maybe someone who believes in dog fighting. You say you have Cats?
How many litters of kittens have you thrown along the side of the road or in the river because you don't have enough sense to have the cats fixed?

How many puppies? You don't believe in getting them spayed or neutered because you're too cheap. I hope every time you go to sleep at night you have nightmares of the little animals who are treated so inhumane.

Those credentials don't mean diddley-squat. It's what's in your heart that counts, those of us who have a heart.

[mogrann]

Now you guys have me thinking in reference to Owen. We were planning to stud him out when he got old enough.
The thought though of rescue pups dying because of me, just breaks my heart.
I am wishy washy now on what I will do. I do have awhile to decide. I will say if I decide to not breed him I will be getting him fixed as I don't need any accidental pups.

[shazamataz]

mogrann, if you do it properly then there is no issue.

My parents breed, I plan on breeding, but I know that the people who will be buying puppies from me are only interested in a purebred from a reputable breeder, they don't want shelter dogs.
People who are willing to buy from backyard breeders are just as likely to get a dog from a shelter, so that's why we use to point of backyard breeders killing shelter puppies... the buyers obviously aren't fussy about where their puppy comes from.

If you want to have a chat about breeding just start a thread.

[Aurora_Bell]

My parents bred, I have NO problem with reputable breeders, My choice however is rescue. I will not purchase a dog from a breeder. 1. I don't ever plan on having a show dog (at least not in the near future) 2. I don't plan on breeding.

The breed that I fell in love with comes in to our shelters daily, and yes a lot of them are pure bred and do have papers. I have nothing against people who do buy pure bred, who are reputable breeders, it's just not the choice for me.

We have always had German Shepherds and Shih Tzu's in our homes growing up, in my home I have one pure bred Am Staff and one Boxer Staffy mix. I love them and wouldn't trade them for the world. Both rescues.

What fester is spewing here is extreme PETA crapolla. Yea the dogs shouldn't have been domesticated in the first place, but guess what? We did it, now we have to take care of them.