[CarrotTalker]

Hi Ther4peuticH3at,
I just read this thread through and my overall impression is that you view your ex as very much not your equal. I don't think it's a leap to conclude that. You don't SOUND like you respect her at all. If this is respect, I'd hate to hear how you talk about someone you don't respect.

But now I'll make a genuine leap and guess that you generally feel that men are more capable than women and that any partner you have is someone you'll guide through life. Even someone genuinely incompetent is not going to appreciate such an attitude. I think she has done the right thing, painful as I'm sure it was, after being together for two years. I know the pain is very real.

My advice is that you take an extended time out from dating and figure out why you come across as overbearing, entitled, and patronizing---to your partner, her friends (apparently), and to total strangers. Like you said, none of us is perfect. The upside of anonymous web advice is total honesty--down side too.

Good luck!

Ehh, I Think calling him "overbearing, entitled, and patronizing" might be pushing it a little too far.

"I just want her to make decisions that she'll be happy with." Seems pretty respectful to me.

I can understand the part where it seems like he might be controlling if he is having issue with her friends, but it seems like they might not be the greatest friends to begin with. (There might be more or less to the story we are missing)

asking, could you go into a little more detail about how his behavior has been disrespectful?

[Ther4peuticH3at]

@ asking

Actually, I respect her so much that I've told her on more than a few occasions that I thought she was a stronger person than I am. I've told her how proud I am of her, and what she's accomplished already in her life. I just won't let her stop and give up on herself, or tell herself that she can't do it, or tell herself that she isn't good enough for anyone or anything.

So you're right, I don't see her as my equal; in so many ways, she's such a better person than I am. In fact, she's the one who acts as if I am somehow superior to her. I repeatedly try to show her that isn't the case. She's changed me in ways I never thought possible. She could do anything she put her mind to. She's AWESOME.

I can see how I might come off to some people, but someone has got to understand me. Here, I'll give you a for instance.

There are times when she'll bring up how she REALLY wants to go back to school, to be one thing or another, to do something she might actually enjoy for the rest of her life. She'll even ask me if I could help with certain things. Then like a month later, it'll come up and she'll start talking about how she isn't smart enough, or how all of a sudden its not worth doing, like she (her contentment) is not worth the trouble. This is the stuff that I'm talking about.

Seriously, what is going on here?! First I'm controlling and overbearing; now I'm a sexist bastard that considers his partner some sort of "project"? Like I'm doing her some sort of favor by "putting up" with her. Like I'm some Christian bringing the word of God to the barbarian... Give me a break. (Not to offend any missionaries)

I'm only saying that people who love each other are supposed to bring the best out of one another; they're supposed to want the best for one another. I support her in whatever she does (as long as it's not hurting her or causing her some great distress). I just try to let her know when she's setting her sights lower than what she's capable of; yet, at the same time, I'll love her regardless. She can do whatever she wants if it truly makes her happy.

[Ther4peuticH3at]

About her friends:

This is so crazy to me. Because I ALWAYS pushed her to make more friends, and to make better quality relationships with those people. I swear I've never told her "de-friend" anyone. It's none of my business. Why would I do that? One of the most important and personal decisions we'll ever make, involves those we choose to surround ourselves with. That's wholly her decision.

Often times I would sit and defend some of they're actions, hoping to bring to light what things might be like from their perspectives. I did this even for the ONE friend that I don't get along with. (in actuality I only have issue with ONE of her friends. It just happens to be that this friend has become by far her closest, and has introduced her to many of her other new friends) Though at times I'll admit that I get frustrated with how a few of her friends have treated her. I generally won't say much if anything at all in those instances; it's between her and them.

[Homegirl 50]

Eh, I Think calling him "overbearing, entitled, and patronizing" might be pushing it a little too far.

"I just want her to make decisions that she'll be happy with." Seems pretty respectful to me.

I can understand the part where it seems like he might be controlling if he is having issue with her friends, but it seems like they might not be the greatest friends to begin with. (There might be more or less to the story we are missing)

asking, could you go into a little more detail about how his behavior has been disrespectful?

I agree with ASKING. What part of what he said indicates that her friend are not the greatest? It could be they see him as being controlling and they are trying to get her to see that.
I think he is a bit controlling too, talking about what he will put up with for a while or her friends are not good ones, not allowing her to go out with her friends to certain places. Is he her daddy? They are the same age for goodness sakes. He makes it sound like he is head and shoulders above her.
I think she is having second thoughts about him and he needs to respect her decision.


It seems to me you talk about this young lady like she is a child you are mentoring, not an adult woman.
She has told you she needs space from you and here you are questioning her decision because you "know best" that "hopefully she will grow up" I find that controlling.
Respect her decision and leave her alone.

[Ther4peuticH3at]

I agree with ASKING. What part of what he said indicates that her friend are not the greatest? It could be they see him as being controlling and they are trying to get her to see that.
I think he is a bit controlling too, talking about what he will put up with for a while or her friends are not good ones, not allowing her to go out with her friends to certain places. Is he her daddy? They are the same age for goodness sakes. He makes it sound like he is head and shoulders above her.
I think she is having second thoughts about him and he needs to respect her decision.

I think you might be speaking from some personal experience that I have absolutely nothing to do with. When did I ever say a WORD about telling her she can't go places?? Hmmm... sounds a bit like a Freudian slip to me. Its funny too, because I've never told her she couldn't go ANYWHERE she wanted to.

I never said I was somehow any better than she is. I fully expect the person I'm dating to be HONEST with me and tell me when I may want to reconsider some of the things I'm doing. So often we get so close to something, so involved, that we can't see the big picture sometimes. She's done that for me, and I owe her so much for it.

And I've already said this, but my beef with her friend has to do with her judging me before even trying to get to know me... Kind of the way you are now.

Geez, I said WE BOTH have some growing up to do. And sometimes that doesn't happen when we don't let it; I was just trying to say that I hope she does let it happen. We're 23 for goodness sake, I plan to spend the rest of my LIFE growing as a person, learning, and loving, and perusing my happiness. I'm a work in progress, and so is every other human being out there.

[Homegirl 50]

I can assure I have no personal experience with this, I am not projecting!
I was in error in the not being able to go anywhere part and I apologise. (I read and answer a lot of these in the course of a day and a lot of these problems are similar) but I am going by what I read and you even said she says you sound like a dad with her.
You sound controlling and condescending to me, you judge her friends except those that meet your standards. This sounds like a parent, not a partner.

I think part of her growing is taking some time away from you. Maybe she wants to spread her wings.

[Ther4peuticH3at]

Again, who said anything about her friends not meeting MY standards... Why would her friends have to meet my standards? In general, when I speak of the quality of her friendships, I'm speaking with regard to the relationship that they share. If she's talking about how this friend always does her wrong... Stands her up when they're supposed to go out together... Doesn't even speak to her when they see her out... If she really has no meaningful relationship with that person, then he/she isn't truly a friend to her, and she can certainly do better than to call or treat them as such.

When I speak of the character of her friends not being what I'd prefer, I mean it. But honestly, I don't know them well enough to assume their character; it's just that from what I do know, the impression isn't all that favorable. It's not like I tell her who she can and can't be friends with. I just don't always get along with every one of them.

Heck, I don't always like the character shown by my own friends, but I love and accept them regardless. And I give my ex all the right to do the same with her own friends. (I'm also sure that at times my friends aren't all that pleased with MY behavior, and yet they love and accept me all the same)

And I'll admit, I can imagine myself sounding VERY condescending at times. And I work on that. I'm only trying to be clear and precise with my choice of words.


Also, this is me sitting in an anonymous forum, talking ABOUT her and ABOUT our relationship. This isn't me in a room with her, saying TO her, how she needs do yada yada yada, and get her life together. For the record, her life is fine as long as she's happy with it.

[Homegirl 50]

I invite you to go back through your post and read what you've said about her friends and how it may be construed.
But anyway, in the future lighten up a bit. Give the girl some space, let her make up her own mind.
I wish you well.

[Ther4peuticH3at]

But anyway, in the future lighten up a bit. Give the girl some space, let her make up her own mind.
I wish you well.

:) :)... I can do that.

Sincerely, thank you for sharing your views and opinions. Please don't let my argumentative nature prevent you from posting further.

It does bother me when I feel like people aren't understanding me, and I think that I generally have a hard time letting go of things. So many times, she urged me to "just drop it." But I struggled to do so. If I'm working on a problem, or a program, or just trying to fix something that isn't working right... I generally obsess over it until it is resolved. This is definitely a fault at times. I'll tell myself I'm going to leave it alone, only to end up right back at it just a few moments later.

"My argumentative nature"... Speaking of which, how the heck do I abate a tendency like that? Maybe I'll work on just keeping my mouth shut...

There's the old adage: bickering like an old married couple... How often do people in healthy relationships bicker with one another? I suppose it doesn't matter as long as they're happy together...

[talaniman]

Quote by asking,
I don't see anything about her not having true friends, let alone making more from nothing. Where does it say that?

Just gleaned it from what was written.

I won't get into whatever it is between her friends and I, that makes for bad blood but it can't be good that they're allowed to influence her at a time when I cannot. It just nags at me... One of them was actually about me not giving her friends a chance when they were (supposedly) finally opening up to me (after disliking me for absolutely no good reason), and she expected me to just immediately pull their knives out of my back and act like everything is kosher. I need more time than that, and so I gave her a pretty flat "No way in hell. I'm not going to forgive them". She was upset but didn't say anything else about it. I know I was being an @%% about it, but, if she had sat me down and tried to help me understand how important is was to her, I'd have gotten over my pettiness and bit the bullet for her...

Which led to this

Different realities, that spell, incompatible, and lack of true communications. You also missed her relationship with her friends as that was a big clue to her not having true friends, just making more from nothing. That speaks more to how she feels about herself than you but clearly her priorities where right there for you to see.

And confirmed here,

If she's talking about how this friend always does her wrong... Stands her up when they're supposed to go out together... Doesn't even speak to her when they see her out... If she really has no meaningful relationship with that person, then he/she isn't truly a friend to her, and she can certainly do better than to call or treat them as such.

She was having her own problems, with the people she was chosing to hang with, so the conflicts that led to this break up was more a combination of bad events, not just ONE event, but over time, she made a choice for herself, and there is no right or wrong, just too many conflicts for this thing to survive.

[Ther4peuticH3at]

I swear I'm SOOO tired of conflict... I need a break. And I need to convince myself that I don't need her... It's just so hard.

I know that for a lot of women, when they tell you about a problem, they typically just want you to listen and console them. I, on the other hand, typically want to help them solve w/e it is... I can't help it. A lot of times I bite my tongue, but probably too many times, I don't. It's frustrating because immediately, when she tells me w/e is going on, HER problems become MY problems. If it's bothering her, it bothers me... That's just how I am.

My friends are now telling me that I was "out of her league" to begin with. I don't believe that. My mom helped remind me that I'm a good person; if she truly loved me, she'd understand where I was coming from. I should have been more wary of someone who claims to love me, but can't even say she loves herself.

I know I'm a good person, but it's hard to imagine a relationship working out better w/ someone else. My friends and family think I have no reason to change who I am... But I worry that maybe I should consider it anyway.

[asking]

Sorry this is so long!

Okay.. Well if it's not going to be me that helps her get to a place where she's truly happy and loves herself for who she is, and doesn't need anyone or anything to make her happy... Then I hope she finds her way there somehow.

No matter what the circumstance, if she ends up finding true happiness within herself, I'll be elated.

You subtly imply that it'll be a miracle if she finds happiness without your help. That's patronizing.

You say you will be elated if she ends up happy, but really you are unhappy because she broke up with you. You frame most of this as if she'll be so much happier if she comes to her senses and comes back. Hey, it's okay to admit that you are miserable without her. It doesn't have to be about how SHE is making a huge mistake. Who are you kidding? This thread is really about what's good for you.

Despite the anonymity here, I won't go into detail about her father, but I will say, he's part of the reason she never thought she was worth much.

Sounds likely. But the last thing she needs is another person who is constantly evaluating her every thought and act.

You can paint me the villain as much as you want...

I don't think you are a villain, just that you have no boundaries. You see her an extension of yourself instead of a separate person. And she's an uncooperative extension of yourself, like having an arm that has a mind of its own. Very frustrating!

I just want her to make decisions that she'll be happy with. But I surely, let her do as she pleases.

You LET her do things? Exactly. You decide what rights she has. That is not respect.

And I don't believe you when you say you want her to make decisions that she'll be happy with. You want her to make decisions you and your mother and friends will be happy with. That's not the same thing.

I just won't let her stop and give up on herself, or tell herself that she can't do it, or tell herself that she isn't good enough for anyone or anything.

Again, you won't LET her [fill in the blank]. It's not up to you to "let" or not let her do anything. Parents "let" their kids do things. You are not her parent.

And I give my ex all the right to do the same with her own friends.

She has rights that precede your existence. You as an individual cannot "give" her rights.

And I'll admit, I can imagine myself sounding VERY condescending at times. And I work on that.

I support you in that!

Also, this is me sitting in an anonymous forum, talking ABOUT her and ABOUT our relationship. This isn't me in a room with her, saying TO her, how she needs do yada yada yada, and get her life together. For the record, her life is fine as long as she's happy with it.

No. That won't fly. People can read minds. If you talk this way to us, it seeps through in everything you and do and say to her. She knows how you think.

So many times, she urged me to "just drop it."

I can imagine!

But I struggled to do so. If I'm working on a problem, or a program, or just trying to fix something that isn't working right... I generally obsess over it until it is resolved. This is definitely a fault at times. I'll tell myself I'm going to leave it alone, only to end up right back at it just a few moments later.

You do need to work on this. It's one thing to obsess about your own problems, but if someone says you are violating their boundaries (and "just drop it" is a way of saying that) you need to be able to hear that and respect that immediately. Ask before offering advice and really LISTEN to the answer. Just as you would not enter a house without knocking and waiting to be invited in, you should not try to "help" someone make their life decisions without an explicit invitation or at least permission to do so.

"My argumentative nature"... Speaking of which, how the heck do I abate a tendency like that? Maybe I'll work on just keeping my mouth shut...

No. The problem is not your mouth but in your mind. You need to adjust your attitude and that's frankly far harder. But, you know, like you said earlier, ALL of us have to work on ourselves. It's not easy.

I know that for a lot of women, when they tell you about a problem, they typically just want you to listen and console them.

This isn't really a male female thing. Men also need other people to hear their problems and just listen sometimes. That's often what they need most from women, because they may have a hard time finding a male friend who can do that. Sometimes problem solving is what people want, sometimes, just a sympathetic ear. A true friend asks which is appropriate and gives the other person what they most want. Often, it's hugs first, then problem solving. But again, problem solving WITH boundaries.

It's frustrating because immediately, when she tells me w/e is going on, HER problems become MY problems. If it's bothering her, it bothers me... That's just how I am.

There is actually research that shows that, on average, men are more upset by hearing their partner's problems compared to when women listen to men's problems. Not sure the reason for this. But I would say that it would be helpful if you could train yourself to listen to her without becoming upset. Practice thinking of her problems as HER problems, not yours.

My friends are now telling me that I was "out of her league" to begin with. I don't believe that

It sounds like your friends have been undermining your relationship. You shouldn't have to apologize for who you are with. If you think you can do better, then you should let her go and find someone in your league.

My friends and family think I have no reason to change who I am... But I worry that maybe I should consider it anyway.

Everyone can change for the better. They are being nice to say you shouldn't change. But of course you can become a more respectful partner if you choose to and of course that would be a good thing. This isn't about whether you are a "good person" or a bad one. Things aren't that black and white. Plus it's about action not intrinsic qualities. Ask yourself, how can I change my thoughts and actions to become a more respectful partner for my next girlfriend--who will be someone I fundamentally respect and do not feel like I have to improve to satisfy the other people in my life because I won't care what they think?

[Ther4peuticH3at]

You subtly imply that it'll be a miracle if she finds happiness without your help. That's patronizing.
You say you will be elated if she ends up happy, but really you are unhappy because she broke up with you. You frame most of this as if she'll be so much happier if she comes to her senses and comes back. Hey, it's okay to admit that you are miserable without her. It doesn't have to be about how SHE is making a huge mistake. Who are you kidding? This thread is really about what's good for you.

Of course, I'm kind of miserable right now. What, did you think I wasn't aware of that, or somehow afraid to admit it? And yes, I think highly enough of myself and our relationship to say that I do wish she (rather than "comes back to her senses") figures out what she really wants... and yes, I hope that turns out to be me, and what we shared. How bad is that??

I know her, and I know that before we met she was CONVINCED it was impossible for her to be happy on her own (SHE TOLD ME). We worked on that together, WITH HER EXPRESSED PERMISSION. (Geez, do I really have to spell that out?) The only problem is that she will implore me to help her, and to push her to work on it, then a few weeks later she'd totally shut down and refuse to talk about it and get upset with me for pushing the issue. I don't, I CAN'T force her to do anything. I CAN'T DO THAT, I AM NOT CAPABLE OF MAKING HER DO ANYTHING SHE DOESN'T WANT TO DO. And I wouldn't want to be able to, that's the beauty of a relationship.

So, do I think it'd be a "miracle" if she found happiness on her own?? NO. She's more than capable of doing so, it's just a hard thing to do, and she, by her own admission has struggled with it in the past. I'm just worried about her. Why the heck can't you read THAT between the lines?

You LET her do things? Exactly. You decide what rights she has. That is not respect.
Again, you won't LET her [fill in the blank]. It's not up to you to "let" or not let her do anything. Parents "let" their kids do things. You are not her parent.

Are you kidding? What verb am I supposed to use there? I say that I let her do what she wants, not because I'm some merciful God blessing her with free will. I'm just saying that I don't get in her way.

And when I say I won't let her do things that are self defeating and degrading to herself, I mean it the same way I wouldn't let my friend drive drunk, or drop out of college because of a breakup. Again the term LET refers only to me getting in the way, advising one thing or another, not pulling my hand out of some puppet. People have to do what's best for themselves, and they have to come to conclusions and decisions on their own. Friends, GOOD friends, step in and TRY to make a difference when they are needed (WHEN APPROPRIATE).

No. That won't fly. People can read minds. If you talk this way to us, it seeps through in everything you and do and say to her. She knows how you think.

People can't read minds. People make assumptions based on their own beliefs.

You see her an extension of yourself instead of a separate person. And she's an uncooperative extension of yourself, like having an arm that has a mind of its own. Very frustrating!

I thought that when you're in a relationship, your partner is, IN MANY WAYS, an extension of yourself, and you of them. You become ONE. Not to say that you can't be your own person or have your own individuality, but in terms of the relationship and your journey through life, you are together, you are one. I mean, you maintain your sense of self, buy you're a team working together... I don't know how to better explain it, but I'm sure somebody will get my drift.

Anyway, she's not my unruly hand, because I'd just cut it off and be done with it. She's her own person, I just want her to be her own person and still want to be with me. NOT THAT I AM OR COULD EVER FORCE HER TO WANT ME. It's just my wish.

I appreciate your input, and I really thank you for reading through my novel of a post here. I understand a lot of what you're saying, I just have to contend a few things.

[Homegirl 50]

:) :) ... I can do that.

Sincerely, thank you for sharing your views and opinions. Please don't let my argumentative nature prevent you from posting further.

It does bother me when I feel like people aren't understanding me, and I think that I generally have a hard time letting go of things. So many times, she urged me to "just drop it." But I struggled to do so. If I'm working on a problem, or a program, or just trying to fix something that isn't working right... I generally obsess over it until it is resolved. This is definitely a fault at times. I'll tell my self I'm going to leave it alone, only to end up right back at it just a few moments later.

"My argumentative nature"... Speaking of which, how the heck do I abate a tendency like that? Maybe I'll work on just keeping my mouth shut...

There's the old adage: bickering like an old married couple... How often do people in healthy relationships bicker with one another? I suppose it doesn't matter as long as they're happy together...

This could be part of the problem with her. Your need to be Mr. fix it! You want to fix her life and fix her and maybe she is just tired of being with someone who thinks she needs to be fixed.
Learning to keep your mouth shut will help. You may have the answers but sometimes a person needs to figure things out on their own. And not everything thought necessarily needs to be voiced.

[Ther4peuticH3at]

Lol, w/e... I'm done with this post.

I don't want anything for her anymore. There's plenty I haven't said here, and I don't need to. Bottom line, its over.

[talaniman]

You are free to explore your world, enjoy!

[Ther4peuticH3at]

So yesterday I found out she left me for someone else, all the while telling me she just wanted to be alone/she wanted to be on her own again... The funny thing is, this guy had been pursuing her since December. And I knew what was going on, I was kind of crossed because felt like she was "letting" him make advances, instead of just ending it. But I never brought it up, I TRUSTED her... with all her "I love you" "You're my whole world" "You're the only one I ever want to be with" "You're my soulmate" "I've never felt this way about anyone else"...

For anyone whose kept up with this thread, I've been beating my brains out trying to figure out what I had done that was so wrong... Everything was good, then without incidence she had totally changed stripes on me. Yet, what I had missed was this guy professing his love to her in a Facebook message and her reading it in the hours between waking up next to me and coming home from work (to break up with me)...

And now I just feel so stupid. I ignored my better judgment in favor of trust and love and a hope for the best... God, I could do so many hateful, unspeakable things right now.

I get that I'm lucky she out of my life now. I wouldn't want to share my life with someone like her. I'm just so ANGRY. I mean, this is more than anger... It weighs on my heart, every thought, every feeling I have is soaked in it. I don't want to carry this around any longer than I have to. I don't want to become something I've never been.

[Homegirl 50]

I'm sorry you are hurt, but unless she is just a total "B" people don't just change without incidence. Another person cannot just walk into your life unless there is an open or cracked door.
At any rate you have an answer so it's time to let this go. I have a feeling you will be able to do it quickly.

[Ther4peuticH3at]

Right, so her betrayal is somehow partly MY fault? Are you kidding me?

[Homegirl 50]

No I didn't say that!
What I mean is, there were some problems in the relationship.
When things are going well, when people are happy another person cannot just walk in and take the heart of a person.
If this guy had been after her for several months, there was a crack there, she was letting him in.