[dwashbur]

Well I didn't mean to imply I don't care... because I do. I just am not going to get angry if someone doesn't get it. I believe we are raptured BEFORE and I think it is important to understand it.

Why? Assuming your view is correct, understanding or not understanding it won't affect whether one takes part in it. And assuming that we are raptured before all that stuff, who cares what happens afterward?

To say that Revelation doesn't have symbolisms would be foolish. However when you read and understand Daniel and Revelation, I just don't see how you can walk away thinking the book is ALL symbolic.

It's easy: I read it the way they intended it.

None of the other times Daniel spoke of were SYMBOLIC. Oh the Animals or type of beasts he described were but they represented a REAL world ruler and a SPECIFIC time.

Um, yes and no. But Daniel himself said he didn't understand any of it, and we only have the remotest of clues about it a thousand or so years later. And even then, some things just don't fit. Look at all the absurd attempts to fit the whole 69/70 weeks thing into the question of the temple and Jesus. It just doesn't work. And putting thousands of years' worth of gap between the 69th and 70th weeks is totally foreign to what he wrote, understood or imagined.

See, the key word in your comment is "represent." We don't know for sure; the things you've been told are somebody's best guess. Nothing more. And the times actually don't fit his descriptions. So those who want to fit it all into a nice neat package have to manipulate numbers, adjust history, play games with symbolism, and otherwise muck with the whole thing to make it fit. I have a big problem with that.

In Revelation John is trying to describe things he hasn't seen before..

We don't know that. In fact, that's the whole question. We have monsters rising out of the sea and the land, we have frog spirits causing havoc, we have horsemen, we have creatures with thousands of eyes hanging around God's throne - if he HAD seen things like that before, I'd wonder what kind of mushrooms he had been eating. But what did it all mean? That's what we don't know. We do know that "literal interpretation" leads us down a ridiculous path.

they are real, the antichrist is real and so is the 7 actual years of tribulation. Not only does John describe it... Daniel does too AND so does the Lord Jesus in Mathew.

Sorry, but there's no "antichrist" in Revelation, Daniel or Matthew. The term only occurs in John's epistles, and there he says there's more than one. The big enemy in Daniel best fits Antiochus IV who defiled the temple during the intertestamental period. Matthew 24 best fits the destruction of the temple in AD 70 by the Romans. And the number that dispensationalists are so enamored with, 666, is a symbol for Nero. Daniel's "weeks" don't fit any known period of history so they have to be something symbolic as well, or else he was wrong. And the beat goes on.

[classyT]

Dwash,
Okie dokie- you had me going...
I started writing down the 4 world empires that I believe Daniel prophcied. I was listing the verses in Daniel going into the symbols of the bear, the 4 generals... tons of stuff and then I happened to click on your website before I posted it.

Ok... ( I'm blonde and I KNOW my limitations)... you are OBVIOUSLY very smart and I'm not going to "enlighten" you in anything concerning Daniels visions. Something tells me you've argued this stuff before and you know it all ready.

What do you do with what Paul says in Thess. about not all of sleeping and the dead in Christ shall rise first? Putting all of it into context. I'm just wondering.

Do you believe all of revelation has already happen? The Great White Throne?

I don't know dwash... smart a guy as you seem to be.. I'm thinking your theology is WASHED up... pun intended. :)

[dwashbur]

"Do you believe all of revelation has already happen? The Great White Throne?"

No. I don't believe Jesus has returned yet. Obviously, that puts me in opposition to Charles Taze Russell's followers ;)

"What do you do with what Paul says in Thess.? about not all of sleeping and the dead in Christ shall rise first? Putting all of it into context. I'm just wondering."

I've answered this several times. Here's what I said just today in another thread:

"It happens as Jesus is returning to earth. He appears and every eye sees him (Rev 1:7), the dead in Christ rise and the living are caught up with him (1 Thess 4:13ff) and they escort him to earth where he sets up his kingdom. As I already mentioned before, the word "meet" in 1 Thessalonians 4 was used in a particular way: a king would go out to battle, and when he returned in victory, the people of his city would go out and "meet" him (same Greek word) and escort him back to the city. That seems pretty clear to me. We either rise or are caught up and accompany Jesus to earth in triumph."

[classyT]

You think the Lord Jesus would let His bride go through the WRATH that is to come? It is going to be hell on earth... not My Jesus... no way, no how. :)

[dwashbur]

You think the Lord Jesus would let His bride go through the WRATH that is to come? It is going to be hell on earth...not My Jesus...no way, no how. :)

We're talking right past each other. I already addressed this, so there it is (as the emperor said to Mozart).

[galveston]

Dave, if you can find a copy, I suggest you read "The Coming Prince" by Sir Robert Anderson.

The paper back copy I have was last printed in 1983 by Kregel Publications. It has prefaces to the fifth and tenth editions.

Anderson was a preacher, lawyer, and between 1888 and 1901 served as Assistant Commissioner of Metropolitan Police, and Chief of the Criminal Investigation Department. (Scotland Yard)

His above named book is a scholarly work where he uses history, Daniel's prophecy, and the Jewish calendar.

He does indeed fit the details of that prophecy into the time given.

I hope you can find a copy, as I feel certain that you would enjoy the read.

[dwashbur]

Dave, if you can find a copy, I suggest you read "The Coming Prince" by Sir Robert Anderson.

The paper back copy I have was last printed in 1983 by Kregel Publications. It has prefaces to the fifth and tenth editions.

Anderson was a preacher, lawyer, and between 1888 and 1901 served as Assistant Commissioner of Metropolitan Police, and Chief of the Criminal Investigation Department. (Scotland Yard)

His above named book is a scholarly work where he uses history, Daniel's prophecy, and the Jewish calendar.

He does indeed fit the details of that prophecy into the time period given.

I hope you can find a copy, as I feel certain that you would enjoy the read.

I've read it, but thanks for the suggestion.

[galveston]

Dave, you seem to think that symbolic prophecy is incomprehensible.

Why would the Holy Spirit inspire it if we cannot understand it?

God does not confuse, He enlightens.


Dan 8:16-22
16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
(KJV)

Here, Daniel is TOLD about Media- Persia and Greece. Why do you insist that we cannot know these things?

[dwashbur]

Dave, you seem to think that symbolic prophecy is incomprehensible.

I did not say that. Yes, the one prophecy you quoted was explained in detail. That's one in a row. My point is, when it comes to books like Revelation, we don't have those explanations. However, it is absolutely necessary to read them on their own terms, and that does NOT mean literally.

[galveston]

Okay, Dave, one in a row.

Dan 2:31-45
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
(At this time in history, Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon were inseparable. Babylon was there long before Nebuchadnezzar, but it did not last long enough to count after he was gone. So Babylon was the first kingdom in this prophetic series.)
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, (we know from history that this was Medio-Persia) and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.(Greece, under Alexander)
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. (Rome)
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
(KJV

NOW WE SEE THE SAME PROGRESSION IN DIFFERENT SYMBOLS.
Dan 7:3-7
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. (Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar)
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. (Medio-Persia)
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. (Greece under Alexander the Great)
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. KJV
(Rome. Now just where do we see the ten horns again?)

Rev 12:3
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(KJV)

Rev 17:12
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
(KJV)
You have to understand that just as Jesus Christ is the central person of the Bible, just so Israel is the central NATION of the Bible. All Bible history and (national)prophecy revolves around Israel.

Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar saw the nations that opressed Israel BEGINNING with Babylon.

John saw the nations that opressed Israel BEGINNING with the first one, Egypt, followed by Assyria, hence the reference "five are fallen, (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece), one is, (Rome) to be followed by the final form of world government to opress ISRAEL.

That is the reason for the "gap" in prophecy, because there WAS NO ISRAEL TO OPRESS between 70 and 1948.

I'm sure you don't agree, but others reading this may find it interesting.

John

[classyT]

Galveston,

Check it out: Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you agree that the last week will start when the antichrist signs the peace treaty to protect Israel?

The way I see it, God's time clock stopped, for now. (after the stoning of Stephen) He has temporarily set Israel aside, and is in the process of calling out a people for his name sake, the Church, His bride. ( whosoever will may come) Then after the rapture of the Church, the Lord begins to deal again with the nation of Israel again. It is when the antichrist signs that peace treaty.. that 70'th week starts... what say you? Do I have it right?

[dwashbur]

John saw the nations that opressed Israel BEGINNING with the first one, Egypt, followed by Assyria, hence the reference "five are fallen, (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece), one is, (Rome) to be followed by the final form of world government to opress ISRAEL.

Surely you jest. You forgot the Hittites, the Philistines, the Moabites, the Edomites, the Syrians under Damascus and a host of others. They all oppressed Israel, so why aren't they in the list? You pulled that out of thin air. Greece fell apart after Alexander's death and its two successors, the Ptolemies and the Seleucids, took turns oppressing Israel in the period between the testaments. The major baddie that Daniel saw was Antiochus IV, who desecrated the temple in Jerusalem and called himself Epiphanes, which basically means "a god in human form." He fits the bill best, which indicates that this 70th week has already happened.

And now a nice little language joke: the people on the streets of Judea had a wonderful little pun. Instead of Epiphanes, they referred to him as Epimanes, which means "maniac."

[classyT]

DAVE,

Do NOT make me come through this computer and smack you. Antiochus IV ( really nice name btw) was a TYPE of the antichrist.

Just like Joseph was a type or picture of the Lord Jesus. It doesn't mean HE was "the one" spoken of in Daniel.

You are sooooo close to a reddie.. don't make me use it. :D

[dwashbur]

DAVE,

do NOT make me come thru this computer and smack ya. Antiochus IV ( really nice name btw) was a TYPE of the antichrist.

Just like Joseph was a type or picture of the Lord Jesus. It doesn't mean HE was "the one" spoken of in Daniel.

you are sooooo close to a reddie..don't make me use it. :D

You can't prove the type thing about Antiochus. He not only fits the picture, he fits the time frame. Reddie? Bring it on, blondie!! ;)

John says more than once that there are many antichrists. The one spoken of in Revelation, the beast with the number 666, was Nero.

[galveston]

Galveston,

Check it out: Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you agree that the last week will start when the antichrist signs the peace treaty to protect Israel?

The way I see it, God's time clock stopped, for now. (after the stoning of Stephen) He has temporarily set Israel aside, and is in the process of calling out a people for his name sake, the Church, His bride. ( whosoever will may come) Then after the rapture of the Church, the Lord begins to deal again with the nation of Israel again. It is when the antichrist signs that peace treaty..that 70'th week starts.... what say you? Do I have it right?

That's pretty much what I think. Actually, there WAS no nation of Israel for God to deal with between 70 and 1948.

Dave, If all the prophecies of Daniel were finished such a long time ago, why haven't the kingdoms of this world been turned to dust?
The final part of the image dream HAS NOT HAPPENED, so is yet future.

Don't you see the recurring idea of the number 10? Ten toes, ten horns in both Daniel and Revelation.

I repeat; national prophecy deals with Israel, always has and always will.

[galveston]

Surely you jest. You forgot the Hittites, the Philistines, the Moabites, the Edomites, the Syrians under Damascus and a host of others. They all oppressed Israel, so why aren't they in the list? You pulled that out of thin air. Greece fell apart after Alexander's death and its two successors, the Ptolemies and the Seleucids, took turns oppressing Israel in the period between the testaments. The major baddie that Daniel saw was Antiochus IV, who desecrated the temple in Jerusalem and called himself Epiphanes, which basically means "a god in human form." He fits the bill best, which indicates that this 70th week has already happened.

And now a nice little language joke: the people on the streets of Judea had a wonderful little pun. Instead of Epiphanes, they referred to him as Epimanes, which means "maniac."

Are you saying that the people you list above were world powers?

The prophecies in Daniel only recognize 4 world kingdoms from Daniel's day forward, and that sequence is given 3 times. (For emphasis?)

It is the end time condition of world affairs that we are interested in, and that was shown to be one of outward co-operation but very weak in actuality. (The 10 toes of iron and clay mixed.)

The image dream starts with the golden head.
Daniel gets 2 more visions, with the same subsequent countries represented by different animals.

[classyT]

[QUOTE=galveston;233720

I repeat; national prophecy deals with Israel, always has and always will.[/QUOTE]

Ditto... in case Dave needs to understand what ditto means... it means I concur.. I agree.. Galveston rocks and is absolutely correct.

[galveston]

[QUOTE=dwashbur;2302952]
Another student did a study on the question of tongues and concluded that maybe there was some validity to the whole idea, and it should be investigated further with an open mind. He likewise was refused graduation.
QUOTE]

QUESTION: Are these the same people who strongly affirm that Paul said a woman should remain silent in church, but deny what the same Apostle said about not fobidding to speak with tongues?

[dwashbur]

Are you saying that the people you list above were world powers?

You didn't say "world powers." You said

John saw the nations that opressed Israel BEGINNING with the first one, Egypt, followed by Assyria, hence the reference "five are fallen, (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece), one is, (Rome) to be followed by the final form of world government to opress ISRAEL.

We were talking about John. Suddenly you want to shift to Daniel. Make up your mind. All the nations I mentioned oppressed Israel at one time or another, and there were plenty in between Egypt and Assyria. And there were a lot more than ten of them. If we're going to talk about the ten items in John, let's talk about them. But quit flipping back and forth when you don't have an answer.

[dwashbur]

[QUOTE=galveston;2338126]

Another student did a study on the question of tongues and concluded that maybe there was some validity to the whole idea, and it should be investigated further with an open mind. He likewise was refused graduation.
QUOTE]

QUESTION: Are these the same people who strongly affirm that Paul said a woman should remain silent in church, but deny what the same Apostle said about not fobidding to speak with tongues?

Pretty much!